Some 9mm not fitting in case gauge.

[battleop]

So I'm trying to decide on my practice rounds by loading up 100 Berry's 9mm 115g Round Nose, 100 Rainier 9mm 115g HP, and 100 Hornady 115g HAP.   On the Berry and Rainer about 10-15 of the rounds don't fit my case gauges (a Dillon and Layman).  They go in all the way except about the thickness of "rim" of the case.   Now when I ran the Hornady's everyone slides in and out easy with no issues.

The ones that don't fit the case gages seem to chamber just fine in my Glock 17 and Glock 34.

I'm loading with a Dillon 650 using a Dillon decaping and crimp dies and a Lee seating die.   The only adjustment in the press is the Lee seating die to get the depth correct.

When I check them with a caliper I can't pin point the issue because nothing looks out of place.   Any idea what's causing this?  If the Hornady's are coming out perfect and the others are not is this an inconsistency in the bullets?

[mikegideon]

I'm not familiar with Dillon crimp dies. But, you may want to try a Lee factory crimp die. It has a sizing ring in it, and will clean up some of those problems after seating. I run all of my pistol reloads thru a gauge as a final step. I only reload 45ACP.

[chances R]

Run your finger over crimp mouth and feel for a difference of the edge of the case mouth.  The ones that don't go flush may need slightly more of a taper crimp.

[Hershmeister]

As stated above - likely need to make a small adjustment on crimp die and/or the belling die The thickness of the copper gilding may have just enough variance to create the anomaly. Or perhaps the infamous glock bulge in the brass?

[battleop]

What doesn't make sense is why are my issues constant with the Berry's and Rainer but not the Hornady?  All of the issues suggested should remain constant across all three brands.

[DWARREN123]

Are not the Hornady FMJ while the other 2 are plated? If so this could the cause.

[mikegideon]

16 minutes ago, DWARREN123 said:

Are not the Hornady FMJ while the other 2 are plated? If so this could the cause.

Beat me to it. I haven't had problems with Berrys plated, again with 45ACP and a Lee Factory Crimp die

[LawVol]

Rounds that chamber just fine in my other 9mm's will not chamber in my STI.  A Lee FCD and adjusting my crimp down to .375-.376 fixed all my problems with the tight STI chamber.  

You can color a case with a marker and then twist the round in the case gauge.  The marker should rub off where the round is hanging up.  

[ohell]

Humans are poor at probability. You loaded 300 rounds and 10% or less didn't gauge.  Not enough data to lay blame of plated bullets. 

Some of the known.... Most plated bullets are one thousandth larger than Hornady HAP. 9mm is a tapered case. I don't know if they bother to taper a 9mm gauge and doubt it.  guess your problem is bulge or burr on rim.

Are the gauge fails all the same headstamp. Some brass I avoid because it is weak; bulge or rim distortes in glock barrel on hot loads. Sometimes you can see head of case is uneven to top of gauge. 

size 300 cases and gauge. Check length on a few if all same headstamp or sample of each headstamp. Load up the passing cases. Now you can determine if you are squashing case in process. If so, was case length a factor? The crimp question should be identified in set up by inspecting & pulling dummy rounds of min/max case length of lot and inspecting crimp.  In the end, rim not falling in gauge won't matter to most barrel chambers, especially a glock. For plinking rounds, no worries with a little warp at rim. 

Edit to comment on lee factory crimp die. While I think it makes a nice crimp I also think it is a way to clean up a mess made in a stage of reloading process. the case was already sized, so why size again?  It can affect performance of softer bullets intended to be oversized, but not so much with 9mm.  Yep, this is why I don't post

Edited October 27, 2016 by ohell

[mikegideon]

31 minutes ago, ohell said:

Humans are poor at probability. You loaded 300 rounds and 10% or less didn't gauge.  Not enough data to lay blame of plated bullets. 

Some of the known.... Most plated bullets are one thousandth larger than Hornady HAP. 9mm is a tapered case. I don't know if they bother to taper a 9mm gauge and doubt it.  guess your problem is bulge or burr on rim.

Are the gauge fails all the same headstamp. Some brass I avoid because it is weak; bulge or rim distortes in glock barrel on hot loads. Sometimes you can see head of case is uneven to top of gauge. 

size 300 cases and gauge. Check length on a few if all same headstamp or sample of each headstamp. Load up the passing cases. Now you can determine if you are squashing case in process. If so, was case length a factor? The crimp question should be identified in set up by inspecting & pulling dummy rounds of min/max case length of lot and inspecting crimp.  In the end, rim not falling in gauge won't matter to most barrel chambers, especially a glock. For plinking rounds, no worries with a little warp at rim. 

Edit to comment on lee factory crimp die. While I think it makes a nice crimp I also think it is a way to clean up a mess made in a stage of reloading process. the case was already sized, so why size again?  It can affect performance of softer bullets intended to be oversized, but not so much with 9mm.  Yep, this is why I don't post

Some case gauges are cut with chamber dimensions. My .458 SOCOM gauge was cut with a chamber reamer. Probability is that it's a good idea to put a sizing ring in your crimp die. I have seen more problems from bullets seating a little crooked, especially stubby 45 bullets. I still get 100% in all my pistols, even from the ones that are a little sticky in the gauge. Haven't had any that outright fail the gauge.

[musicman]

1 hour ago, ohell said:

Humans are poor at probability. You loaded 300 rounds and 10% or less didn't gauge.  Not enough data to lay blame of plated bullets. 

Some of the known.... Most plated bullets are one thousandth larger than Hornady HAP. 9mm is a tapered case. I don't know if they bother to taper a 9mm gauge and doubt it.  guess your problem is bulge or burr on rim.

Are the gauge fails all the same headstamp. Some brass I avoid because it is weak; bulge or rim distortes in glock barrel on hot loads. Sometimes you can see head of case is uneven to top of gauge. 

size 300 cases and gauge. Check length on a few if all same headstamp or sample of each headstamp. Load up the passing cases. Now you can determine if you are squashing case in process. If so, was case length a factor? The crimp question should be identified in set up by inspecting & pulling dummy rounds of min/max case length of lot and inspecting crimp.  In the end, rim not falling in gauge won't matter to most barrel chambers, especially a glock. For plinking rounds, no worries with a little warp at rim. 

Edit to comment on lee factory crimp die. While I think it makes a nice crimp I also think it is a way to clean up a mess made in a stage of reloading process. the case was already sized, so why size again?  It can affect performance of softer bullets intended to be oversized, but not so much with 9mm.  Yep, this is why I don't post

Great info here.  I was going to mention the idea that plated bullets seem to run 1 or 2 thousandths over in my experience as well.  I've always noted them to be more "snug" than real fmj in every caliber I load.  Actually, in 38/357, I've about given up on using real fmj with a cannelure because no matter how hard of a crimp I put on the cases, many rounds still end up with a bullet that can be spun by hand, even after a run through the Lee FCD and an obvious roll crimp.  That is also due to the wide tolerances of 38/357 brass makers, but the slightly oversized plated bullets I get from Xtreme and Berry's load up nice and snug.

Though it's a different caliber and problem, I can see a bullet that is one or two thousandths wider causing these problems in 9mm.  

I run everything through an FCD just 'cuz, but the way all my other dies are set, hardly ANY 9mm cases have any meaningful contact with the die.

Hope you get it figured out!

[chances R]

Hornady site lists the 115 gr HAP at .355.  Berry's listed at .356 .   Like most, go the the LEE FCD and most problems solved.

[mikegideon]

Is there an echo in here?

 

[chances R]

Good info worth repeating.....

[battleop]

I'm going to run some more test rounds this weekend.  I'm gong to swap the Dillon crimp die out for my Lee crimp die and see what happens.

[DWARREN123]

The big test is will they chamber in your pistol(s) and fit your mags, if yes then they are good to go.

[tercel89]

On ‎10‎/‎28‎/‎2016 at 8:27 PM, DWARREN123 said:

The big test is will they chamber in your pistol(s) and fit your mags, if yes then they are good to go.

I agree. A lot of times I will use my pistol's barrel as a gauge instead of a real gauge. That way I know I am doing it right. If I am reloading 45acp , I will  use my 1911 barrel instead of my Glock 21 since Glock chambers are a little more larger than others. That way it will run fine in both my 1911 and Glock 21 and Glock 30

[Raoul]

48 minutes ago, tercel89 said:

I agree. A lot of times I will use my pistol's barrel as a gauge instead of a real gauge. That way I know I am doing it right. If I am reloading 45acp , I will  use my 1911 barrel instead of my Glock 21 since Glock chambers are a little more larger than others. That way it will run fine in both my 1911 and Glock 21 and Glock 30

Yeah you really have to do the plunk test.

[tercel89]

1 hour ago, Raoul said:

Yeah you really have to do the plunk test.

Yep and it really sounds like "PLUNK" ha ha !!!

[battleop]

I went to the range on Friday and shot some of each batch.   I had kept the ones that didn't gauge separate and they all ran in the gun (Glock 34/Glock 17) without issues.   Before I went I loaded up 100 Berry 124g Round Nose and 100 Xtreme 115g Round nose.   Other than making some minor adjustments to the seating die (and not the crimp) I didn't change much.    I gauged these rounds and not a single one failed to gauge correctly.    So it goes back to something with the Ranier 115g HP and Berry 115g RN.  

I'm going to run another batch of the Raniers and Berrys this weekend and see what adjustments can be made to make it go away.

[noylj]

The gun is what counts. It they feed and chamber, they are good to go.

Using a Lee FCD on a bullet over 0.355" is a good way to swage the bullet down and lose any accuracy. Very BAD choice with lead bullets and over-sized plated bullets.

The solution to chambering problems is to determine the cause:

Take the barrel out of the gun. Drop rounds in until you find one that won't chamber. Take that round and "paint" the bullet and case black with Magic Marker or other marker. Drop round in barrel and rotate it back-and-forth a few times.

Remove and inspect the round:

1) Scratches in the ink on bullet--COL is too long

2) Scratches in the ink on edge of the case mouth--insufficient crimp

3) Scratches in the ink just below the case mouth--too much crimp, you're crushing the case

4) Scratches in the ink on case at base of bullet--bullet seated crooked due to insufficient case expansion (not case mouth flare) or improper seating stem fit

5) Scratches in the ink on case just above extractor groove--case bulge not removed during sizing. May need a bulge buster.

I would hazard a guess #4 is the most likely reason...

[Spiffy]

On 10/26/2016 at 1:44 AM, mikegideon said:

I'm not familiar with Dillon crimp dies. But, you may want to try a Lee factory crimp die. It has a sizing ring in it, and will clean up some of those problems after seating. I run all of my pistol reloads thru a gauge as a final step. I only reload 45ACP.

 

I run Lee FCD on all my sets. It's just good insurance.