Tn. Constutional carry

[JayC]

2 hours ago, Cruel Hand Luke said:

So in practice, states have mandated that people get a permit and most states have mandated some form of training. Do I think that there will be "blood in the streets" with constitutional carry? No of course not. But I also don't think constitutional carry will suddenly make numb skulls stop being numb skulls either..... now they'll just be armed potentially with no one having ever exposed them to proper gun handling and when my family might potentially be down range from those people I am a little bit concerned. It is not that I think people should not carry. I think people who refuse to avail themselves of education in safe and proper gun handling should have the common decency to not carry and handle guns in public. 

30 states allow for unlicensed carry, none of those states require training to carry.  So, most states don't require a permit, and most don't require training.  TN is in the minority compared to other states.

Edited November 28, 2016 by JayC

[rmiddle]

5 minutes ago, JayC said:

You make a very valid argument that we should also do away with drivers licenses as well   Or just take the test online and receive you drivers license in the mail after paying $10.

It's nothing but make work for government employees, and does little to protect society.

 

Except DL are a privilege not a right.  Big difference.  Nowhere in the constitution does it give you the right to drive a car but the second amendment is pretty clear.

[JayC]

14 minutes ago, rmiddle said:

Except DL are a privilege not a right.  Big difference.  Nowhere in the constitution does it give you the right to drive a car but the second amendment is pretty clear.

Where in the TN state constitution did we cede power to regulate travel or access to the roadways to the state government?  One could make an argument that freedom of travel is a God given right, and the state has no real business restricting it either.

[mikegideon]

 I believe the government is already way bigger than it needs to be. So, dumbasses and gun safety aside, I'm not going to waste my time trying to come up with more #### for them to ruin.

I just had to buy a couple of shower heads. Do you know they are regulated by the friggin' government? Toilets too. Drain the damn swamp already.

[hipower]

3 hours ago, gregintenn said:

My friend, never forget the phrase "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED".

I can't...I wear it on my shirt!

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Honestly my biggest concern with constitutional carry is what effect it will have on reciprocity with other states now and what effect it would have later if nationwide reciprocity gets passed.

I'd rather have to get a permit to carry here and be able to carry in other states than not have to get a permit to carry here but not be able to carry elsewhere. For those of us that travel a lot that is kind of a big deal.

[gregintenn]

16 minutes ago, Cruel Hand Luke said:

Honestly my biggest concern with constitutional carry is what effect it will have on reciprocity with other states now and what effect it would have later if nationwide reciprocity gets passed.

I'd rather have to get a permit to carry here and be able to carry in other states than not have to get a permit to carry here but not be able to carry elsewhere. For those of us that travel a lot that is kind of a big deal.

A very valid concern. Wouldn't national permitless carry do away with this?

[chances R]

FYI,  Alabama will let one open carry in most places, but without a permit one cannot carry concealed or in an vehicle.

[mikegideon]

1 hour ago, hipower said:

I can't...I wear it on my shirt!

You would get kicked outa college  

[ken56]

Good discussion and many valid points have been voiced. I am all for training too but that costs money that some people do not have extra to expend on a firearm or training or getting a permit. I take exception to the government requiring me to go defenseless  if I can't meet their demands of getting a license. Its like a poll tax or literacy test to vote. Regulation of arms was more related to keeping guns out of the hands of minorities way back when. 

I have seen plenty of stupid at the range when I go too so, that training some people think they are doing is to me just them making noise and wasting ammo. Training needs an end goal and just popping off shells making noise is minimally helpful. I have never witnessed any stupid displayed out in public in my presence among my fellow gun owners though.

If TN should ever implement constitutional carry I doubt that we would not have some type of permit system, if not the same one we have now. Even the states that have it now have some type of permit system. That Would still allow us to travel to other states.  I still think there needs to be some type of universal acceptance nationally like our drivers licenses. We have that to a point now, I know.

[f308gtb]

Except DL are a privilege not a right.  Big difference.  Nowhere in the constitution does it give you the right to drive a car but the second amendment is pretty clear.

Do you believe we get our rights from the Constitution???


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[shotgunshooter]

Good discussion and many valid points have been voiced. I am all for training too but that costs money that some people do not have extra to expend on a firearm or training or getting a permit. I take exception to the government requiring me to go defenseless  if I can't meet their demands of getting a license. Its like a poll tax or literacy test to vote. Regulation of arms was more related to keeping guns out of the hands of minorities way back when. 
I have seen plenty of stupid at the range when I go too so, that training some people think they are doing is to me just them making noise and wasting ammo. Training needs an end goal and just popping off shells making noise is minimally helpful. I have never witnessed any stupid displayed out in public in my presence among my fellow gun owners though.
If TN should ever implement constitutional carry I doubt that we would not have some type of permit system, if not the same one we have now. Even the states that have it now have some type of permit system. That Would still allow us to travel to other states.  I still think there needs to be some type of universal acceptance nationally like our drivers licenses. We have that to a point now, I know.

Except it really isn't. Think about all the unnecessary crap we all buy this just gun related. Does anyone really need 14 handguns or the latest and greatest master blaster? I don't think so and I personally would much rather have training. My training budget got shot to crap over the summer when I decided I "needed" an AK pistol. My point is instead of sitting on a pile of guns, ammo, and mags that we don't use why not just downsize or buy less and get some training. Heck I'm about out of fun money for the next year but I'm still gonna be throwing money towards a rifle class. No one says you have to spend $500-$1000 dollars on a class either. There are many options out there and as long as they come from a competent instructor that's all that matters. Don't want to dive too far into the whole instructor thing and schools of thought.

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[DaveTN]

11 hours ago, JayC said:

30 states allow for unlicensed carry, none of those states require training to carry.  So, most states don't require a permit, and most don't require training.  TN is in the minority compared to other states.

Source? I don’t believe there are 30 states where you can carry a loaded handgun without a permit; training or not.

 

[Cruel Hand Luke]

11 hours ago, gregintenn said:

A very valid concern. Wouldn't national permitless carry do away with this?

Probably...but nationwide permitless carry happening is probably about as likely as the democratic party adopting a militant PRO 2nd amendment stance as a party platform.......

 

After giving this some thought I may have a solution (though some will still hate it ). Adopt constitutional carry AND still have a permit, but an "enhanced" permit like Mississippi. 

 

That way EVERYONE can carry without a permit inside TN and if that is all they want to do - the bare minimum - then they can do that. But then also offer a permit that would cost money and require training that would then allow you to carry in places in TN that you presently cannot carry and allow you to carry in other states that offer reciprocity. 

[JayC]

14 hours ago, Cruel Hand Luke said:

Honestly my biggest concern with constitutional carry is what effect it will have on reciprocity with other states now and what effect it would have later if nationwide reciprocity gets passed.

I'd rather have to get a permit to carry here and be able to carry in other states than not have to get a permit to carry here but not be able to carry elsewhere. For those of us that travel a lot that is kind of a big deal.

Then we keep the permit system for those who want to carry nationally, and allow unlicensed carry for those who don't.  Problem solved.

[JayC]

4 hours ago, DaveTN said:

Source? I don’t believe there are 30 states where you can carry a loaded handgun without a permit; training or not.

 

http://www.opencarry.org/maps/map-open-carry-of-a-properly-holstered-loaded-handgun/

There are some restrictions in place, but even with the permit system we still have restrictions in place in TN.

[Worriedman]

4 hours ago, DaveTN said:

Source? I don’t believe there are 30 states where you can carry a loaded handgun without a permit; training or not.

 

2015 version, Texas now allows open carry, but that is moot to this discussion.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Worriedman

[mikegideon]

13 minutes ago, JayC said:

Then we keep the permit system for those who want to carry nationally, and allow unlicensed carry for those who don't.  Problem solved.

That's what I always thought. Constitutional carry won't change my life one bit. Sure will help the folks that can't afford a permit, though.

[Worriedman]

Just now, mikegideon said:

That's what I always thought. Constitutional carry won't change my life one bit. Sure will help the folks that can't afford a permit, though.

Permittless carry would allow the single mother, who works for a living and is trying to drag herself up to not have to pay the vig to enjoy a Right already hers.  I am going to keep my permit as I travel it will not make much difference in the total permit numbers, and I believe the State is violating the Constitution by charging me a tax on a Right.

As far as those who harp about training and driver's license, ever spent a day in traffic court, and see all those who drive without a license who get  $10.00 fine and nothing else?  Ever think about illegal aliens who drive without license?  they are criminals and criminals do not obey the law, and criminals will carry gun without a permit.

[Worriedman]

19 minutes ago, JayC said:

http://www.opencarry.org/maps/map-open-carry-of-a-properly-holstered-loaded-handgun/

There are some restrictions in place, but even with the permit system we still have restrictions in place in TN.

JayC has a better, more updated detailed map than I posted!

[JAB]

Since it keeps coming up, I never had a Driver's Ed course.  The only 'training' for driving I had came from my parents and from reading the Driver's Handbook before taking the test.  I took the test back when it was still offered at a small driver's testing center that used to be in Loudon.  The person who evaluated me had me drive about a mile down a back road, pull into an empty church parking lot and demonstrate that I could park between the lines in one of the parking spaces - not backing in, not parallel parking, just pull into the space - and then drive the mile or so back to the center.  I have had been in one accident that was written up as my fault - when I slid up hill two car lengths after applying my brakes while traveling at only 20mph and bumped the back of a vehicle in front of me in the Dodge Dakota I used to drive because it had just started to drizzle rain and the road was slick (and that is the reason I will not drive a 2WD light pickup truck ever again if I can avoid it.)  There was a cop in his cruiser directly behind me who witnessed the whole thing and saw that I was neither speeding nor following too closely so the responding officer wrote it up as having 'complicating factors' or something like that and it was only because of the ridiculous law that states if you hit someone in the rear it is automatically your fault that it was written up as being my fault.  That was in September of 1996 so it was twenty years and a few months ago.

My point is that for nearly thirty years I have driven a vehicle on an almost daily basis.  I have driven a full-sized RV completely across the state, have driven various trucks pulling various trailers (both cargo and a camping trailer) and have had an F endorsement which allowed me to drive a passenger van for work (which required an additional written test which took maybe ten minutes to complete and five extra dollars per DL renewal.)  I drive a vehicle a whole lot more often than I actually have to fire a gun for self defense (which has, happily, been never so far.)  My vehicle has more potential for causing death or destruction than the j-frame I usually carry yet driving - which is not an enumerated right - required no training beyond what my parents taught me and reading up on the 'rules and laws of the road'.  As for the HCP course, heck, the Hunter's Safety course that I had to take in order to buy a hunting license is more in-depth and strenuous than the HCP course yet there was one fellah in my HCP class who had, apparently, already taken the class two or three times and yet still could not even pass the written test to make it to the range portion (the instructor was allowing him to retake the course free of charge after the first time.)  That really is kind of scary.  Of course, nothing says that guy can't carry (illegally) without a permit so requiring an HCP to legally carry really doesn't prevent an 'unsafe' individual from carrying in public - it only allows additional charges if that person is caught or does something dangerous or irresponsible with a firearm.  I, personally, do think that there should be an HCP certification course but it should be provided free of charge by the state, just like Hunter's Safety and the certificate showing that one passed the course should be the HCP and should be the only requirement for carrying a firearm with no additional licensing or expense required.  That certificate should be good for a lifetime but if someone wants to retake the course after, say, five years or so in order to get a 'refresher' on the main laws (which will change over time) then doing so should, again, be free of charge for the individual.  Further training is great and all but should not be mandatory for basic handgun carry either open or concealed.  Perhaps there could be an 'enhanced permit' that would allow carry in places that are now restricted to folks with an HCP and perhaps that 'enhanced permit' could require further training.  That might be the best way to strike a balance between 'excercising a right' and 'weeding out those who would be a danger to themselves or others'.  I would think that such a setup would also allow TN to continue with the reciprocal agreements we have with other states who recognize a TN HCP.

Edited December 2, 2016 by JAB

[f308gtb]

Everyone's a Statist.

Apparently it's perfectly ok for the government to dictate what we're allowed to do before any crime against person or property has occurred, as long as it doesn't dictate "too much." And apparently now it's also perfectly ok for the government to steal my tax money and use it to "train" someone else in the government's abysmally hypocritical idea of safety and responsibility for free. Whatever it takes so long as the government keeps us safe, right?

I guess those of us who understand freedom are a minuscule minority even on a gun forum.

Regular permits and enhanced permits are the same thing: permits. Who did I give the authority to license me to do anything? Until I aggress against another, I have committed no immoral act and no crime whether I carry with a license or without one.

If you're worried about the "dangerous" or "untrained" fellow with a gun, then carry one, too, and encourage all the other responsible people you know to do the same. Don't run to the FAR MORE DANGEROUS government and ask it to save you by exerting ever more power.

All property is or should be private property in one way or another, and the owner of said property has the sole authority to dictate that a gun-carrier may not enter. Kroger can issue permits to carry in their stores if they want. It's their store. To ask the government to license carriers is to acquiesce to their illegitimate claim of ownership of the whole state and all property therein.

If the government has to exist (which it doesn't), its only legitimate action on this matter is to issue a statement which says it has no business telling people what they may or may not carry and where.

If Georgia doesn't recognize it, that's Georgia's business. If you can't carry there without an expensive TN permission slip, that sucks, but that's life.

Please, no protests of "utopian delusions." We either believe in freedom or we don't. And we're discussing the "ought" not the "is."

We're never going to shrink (and hopefully eventually abolish) the coercive government as it exists today if even the people who should understand and value freedom the most are calling for government action.


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[gregintenn]

On 11/28/2016 at 11:55 PM, f308gtb said:

 

Do you believe we get our rights from the Constitution???


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Nope. We get our rights from our Creator. They are simply enumerated in our Constitution.

[f308gtb]

Nope. We get our rights from our Creator. They are simply enumerated in our Constitution.

Exactly.

I might elaborate and phrase it thusly:

Our Creator gave us freedom under His Law to do anything not proscribed by Him, and did not give civil government, however organized, any authority to add proscriptions. In our feeble Constitution, the entirely unnecessary and counterproductive Bill of Rights merely enumerates a small handful of prominent ways in which our "Federal" government may not transgress the people.

(But that's a mouthful so your way is probably better.)

"rmiddle" said the Constitution didn't give us a right to drive as if that was supposed to mean something.

Come to think of it, I don't see a right to eat ham sandwiches either. Quick! We need another amendment before the government totally outlaws them!

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[300winmag]

JAB,

I'd like our handgun carry permit to basically be treated just like the 'enhanced' license is treated in Mississippi where you are legal just about everywhere, including K-12 schools and colleges.  Then if you don't want to buy a permit, you follow basically what the present carry laws are.  Mississippi did that and it is working great for them.  Those who want to spend the time in a class and shoot at the range can then carry and not worry about where they are legal or not.  Those that don't, have to be mindful of where they are at.  People without permits have to follow the same rules as people who have permits w/o training (MS originally did not require any training for permits until the enhanced permit came along 5 years ago).

It's not ideal, but I think it is much more politically acceptable and able to pass VS just going straight to permit less carry with ZERO restrictions.  You're never going to have politicians support a bill to legalize that.  Me personally, i'd gladly take an enhanced permit to carry anywhere VS the situation we have now with the various places that we are illegal to carry in.

Here's what Mississippi pro gun folks did that the politicians did get behind and pass with their governor signing it into law over time.

1.  Legal car carry and sort of gray open carry.

2.  Somewhat restricted licensing system (no training required) with list of off limits locations.

3.  Enhanced Carry (training required) with basically no restrictions.

4.  Define open carry so not gray anymore.

5.  Constitutional carry with restrictions.

 

We are probably at Step 2 in Tennessee.  We can keep on trying for Constitutional carry every year and gain nothing with the make up of our legislature or governor OR we can at least gain some ground with enhanced carry and less restrictions and THEN at a later time go for open carry and constitutional carry.