Tn. Constutional carry

[Sidecarist]

I'm all for CC. No you can't fix stupid, poor judgment, or criminal behaviour. What we can do is offer training that is even better than what the minimum is now. Those that have any serious interest will attend and learn. Many of us learned gun safety from a young age in our homes. Today that's not so common particularly in urban areas.

If we ever do get CC then it will be up to the responsible gun owners to defend that right by making sure that the gun isn't demonized but rather the dangerious/violent behavior of PEOPLE that causes the harm.

I know I'm preaching to the choir here but we need to ask ourselves what do we do each day that promotes the safe responsible use of guns? Education is the key...

[ken56]

So, is there an answer to the question of what constraints on carry is acceptable? Who is /has the authority to set the standards? We are all here because we have something in common and like to share our opinions with one another. Constitutional carry has different meanings to every one of us here. What do we agree on and what do we differ on? If you can't fix stupid do we penalize everyone because of one irresponsible incident? Do we accept the "accidents" as the price we pay for freedom? How much government control is acceptable in the exercise of rights? none? some?

[mikegideon]

[gregintenn]

6 hours ago, xtriggerman said:

In a perfect world CC is great. Reality dictates different. The HCP instructor here at Daves Pawn covered the issues of responsible carry very well. Will every CC individual study the use of deadly force as related to court precedence? Maybe but stupid is alive and well and if the stats start going against gun ownership in those CC states, be ready for a push back against the 2nd. As for bad judgment from those who should know better, you will never hear about the cases where the safety course was instrumental not letting that "accident" happen. If the Safety course is instrumental in keeping one person from getting accidentally shot, Im all for it. Its a small price to pay and frankly the State reps that matter seem to agree. I never said Training is a catch all but as someone who has carried concealed for 35 years, my training in Use of Deadly Force and legal ramifications has made me far more conscientious in when is the right time to exercise my right to self defense. With the huge number of stupid out there, sure lets do CC... Meth heads, drunks, drugies...  lets give em all a right to wander around with a loaded weapon in their pocket. May your kids live a long & healthy life just like the "non"? CC in Chicago.  

Here's the b.s. part of your argument. Do you seriously think these people give a damn whether or not they have a "right" to do something?

If  government is the answer, I don't like the question.

[xtriggerman]

4 hours ago, ken56 said:

So, is there an answer to the question of what constraints on carry is acceptable? Who is /has the authority to set the standards? We are all here because we have something in common and like to share our opinions with one another. Constitutional carry has different meanings to every one of us here. What do we agree on and what do we differ on? If you can't fix stupid do we penalize everyone because of one irresponsible incident? Do we accept the "accidents" as the price we pay for freedom? How much government control is acceptable in the exercise of rights? none? some?

  Good questions, I would like to see no constraints on concealed carry, nation wide and have the NRA set the standards for a handgun course that proves competency along with safe handling and control of a weapon in public places and all the legal ramifications of a shooting within the state of residency. The NRA has been teaching these things longer than any one alive here. Once the back round check and NRA course has been completed successfully, the New HCP person should have zero restrictions on his desire to carry any where. If it goes stupid after that, we can at least say, we as a people exercised every reasonable effort to highlight the great responsibility of carrying a deadly weapon.  The government should have little to do with the system aside from making firearm safety mandatory in grade school such as they did with Eddy Eagle here in Cumberland county. The nearly 5000 kids that went threw the class loved it from the parental reports I'v heard. JMHO.

Edited November 25, 2016 by xtriggerman

[DaveTN]

What you are suggesting is what we already have here in Tennessee. The fact that a person goes through a class doesn’t mean they can safely handle a firearm or know the requirements for the use of deadly force. We see that all the time.

Requiring training isn’t constitutional carry. I couldn’t care less what other states do and don’t want a Federal carry law. The NRA can’t force a person to be safe with a gun. How and where you carry off your property is going to be controlled by the state; that will never change.

And what’s up with the “non” CC in Chicago? Chicago has carry permits. The murder rate in bloody Chicago is less than Memphis. We don’t need to look to Chicago, Detroit or New York for high crime rates; we have them right here. It’s why we carry guns.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

On 11/23/2016 at 10:41 PM, xtriggerman said:

  . What the MOST important area here in TN that needs changing is the exoneration from civil court if one is found justified in a shooting by the DA.

What exactly are you saying here?

[ken56]

To me, constitutional carry is not the gold standard that solves everything . I do believe that we should not have to pay the state to exercise an enumerated right. I am forced to here in TN to have a permit to carry in public. I carry in and around my home every day and I live in a subdivision with neighbors fairly close by. What good is a right to self defense if you can't exercise that in ones daily routine, form grocery shopping to going to the movie,  but I need a permission slip from the state to do so. I also think that a property owner should have the right to control access to his property, by asking a person to leave the premises, not by a sign that carries the weight of law. (There is a difference between your home and a business and I speak business wise)

I have said that it is incumbent upon the individual, should one choose to go armed, to train to a level of competency in safe handling and accuracy in shooting but again, I see that as an infringement because it requires another entity to certify my competency. SO .....it comes down to my word that I am competent. Is that good enough? The Bill of Rights is a constraint on government, not what you and I do in public to each other. The criminal code covers OUR INDIVIDUAL conduct in public, not the BofR. 

I might have jumped around here in expressing my views but for the sake of brevity and not to overwhelm this thread. I think this is a subject that may never have a good answer that will be acceptable to a majority of the population, anti or pro. I for one will continue to carry openly and/or concealed everywhere I legally can and comply with what the state requires. As of now, what other choice do we have?

[Oh Shoot]

11 hours ago, Cruel Hand Luke said:

What exactly are you saying here?

He's proposing changing law so that if you aren't charged in a shooting incident, also can't be sued.

- OS

[DaveTN]

I don’t think that could happen without at least a Grand Jury hearing, and would probably require a judge’s ruling.

The Attorney General of the United States decided not to charge Hillary; that doesn’t mean she didn’t commit or crime or that she couldn’t be charged later.

[shotgunshooter]

Anyone who thinks that the course to receive your permit is training is sorely mistaken.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[Omega]

2 minutes ago, shotgunshooter said:

Anyone who thinks that the course to receive your permit is training is sorely mistaken.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
 

I quite agree, though I was given some good information it was not what I would call training, at most I would call it an introduction.  Training  should be an individual responsibility,  no other right requires any sort of training.  I dare say some of those exercising their 1st should be required to have training instead of us, specially those inciting riots and creating racial divides where there isn't any.  No, the 2nd should be treated the same as the rest, with no qualifiers.

[shotgunshooter]

I quite agree, though I was given some good information it was not what I would call training, at most I would call it an introduction.  Training  should be an individual responsibility,  no other right requires any sort of training.  I dare say some of those exercising their 1st should be required to have training instead of us, specially those inciting riots and creating racial divides where there isn't any.  No, the 2nd should be treated the same as the rest, with no qualifiers.

Getting training is like going to drivers ed. Is it expensive? Hell yes but it's well worth it. Last time I checked 500-1000 is a lot cheaper than being dead or on death's door. By the state dictating the minimum standard it means that the course is taught just to meet those minimums. No one should want to be just good enough. That's my two cents.

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[Cruel Hand Luke]

On 11/23/2016 at 10:41 PM, xtriggerman said:

  . What the MOST important area here in TN that needs changing is the exoneration from civil court if one is found justified in a shooting by the DA.

What exactly are you saying here?

He's proposing changing law so that if you aren't charged in a shooting incident, also can't be sued.

- OS

 

How would that differ from TCA 39-11-622 ?

Edited November 26, 2016 by Cruel Hand Luke

[DaveTN]

2 hours ago, Cruel Hand Luke said:

How would that differ from TCA 39-11-622 ?

Because that statute doesn’t make you immune from being sued it just offers financial recourse if you are, and… “If the court finds that the defendant was justified in using such force pursuant to §§ 39-11-611 -- 39-11-614 or § 29-34-201.”

It’s better than nothing, but if a dirt bags family sues you; you need to hire an attorney and pay him regardless of the outcome. If a court finds you were justified, you can then get a judgement against them, but that doesn’t mean you will ever get reimbursed for the attorney fees you already paid.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Has that changed? Didn't that used to you were immune from civil liability if the person you shot was committing a crime? 

Edited to add....I think I was thinking of TCA 29-34-201

Edited November 26, 2016 by Cruel Hand Luke

[chances R]

The misconception, over and over, is that the general public perceives the HCP course as training in SHOOTING and it is probably because the State says one spends 4 hours on the range.  The class is primarily about the laws governing the carry and use of a firearm for SD.  Of equal importance is safety.  It always amazes me the number of students that show up that don't know how to hold, load, or safely operate a firearm.  Furthermore the misconceptions on the use of a firearm by "experienced" owners is equally as scary whether simply shooting or on what they feel regarding legal aspects.  The State should require a 90 day subscription to TGO  

[JayC]

On 11/23/2016 at 9:41 PM, xtriggerman said:

    I don't think Constitutional carry is a good idea. Last year I went threw the HCP course and found it a very good idea for every one there including me! and I have had a NY HCP for 35 years and a 25 year retired State Corrections officer to boot. What the MOST important area here in TN that needs changing is the exoneration from civil court if one is found justified in a shooting by the DA. You guys complain about the cost of a HCP and true, it could certainly be less but consider that to mount a Legal defense in court you can add another digit to the $300 HCP cost just to get things started. 

   Secondly, if you think you are doing society a favor in allowing every Tom, Dick and Harriet a favor by calling for essentially a DL carry, you are sadly mistaken. I had a full service Gun Shop for 14 years and I cant tell you how many times I was covered by some nit wit with his action closed gun while I stood behind the gun counter. Today was a funeral for my wife's friends, 3 year old grandson. That boy was fatally shot in the neck by his 10 year old brother that found Dad's hand gun. This past summer, the same thing happened in the Crossville Verizon parking lot when a 5 year old fatally shot his 3 year brother in the car while Mom was in the store.   NEVER, EVER think less or no training in gun handling is a good idea. Personally I would make the 8 hour permit course tougher in the safe handling and child proof storage of firearms. Furthermore, I would be more than happy to pony up a $300 life time HCP as long as that money was used to mandate the NRA Eddy Eagle gun safety program for grade school kids. I Love my 2nd A rights but never think that loaded guns and training are separate issues.

Of course you do, bringing you liberal big government dribble from NY down here

Why not have an 8 hour safety course when buying a 5 gallon bucket?  More children drown in a 5 gallon bucket every year than children (under the age of 12) die from gun violence from themselves or the hands of another child.  

I believe firearms training is a good thing, but the government requiring it to own and/or carry a gun is a waste of time and money.  Remember that police officers with all of their training are 5 times more likely than an average citizen to kill an innocent person in a self defense shooting.  Many of them receiving little or no training.

It's a constitutional right to bear arms, and there should be no litmus test on exercising that right.

[JayC]

On 11/24/2016 at 1:19 PM, xtriggerman said:

In a perfect world CC is great. Reality dictates different. The HCP instructor here at Daves Pawn covered the issues of responsible carry very well. Will every CC individual study the use of deadly force as related to court precedence? Maybe but stupid is alive and well and if the stats start going against gun ownership in those CC states, be ready for a push back against the 2nd. As for bad judgment from those who should know better, you will never hear about the cases where the safety course was instrumental not letting that "accident" happen. If the Safety course is instrumental in keeping one person from getting accidentally shot, Im all for it. Its a small price to pay and frankly the State reps that matter seem to agree. I never said Training is a catch all but as someone who has carried concealed for 35 years, my training in Use of Deadly Force and legal ramifications has made me far more conscientious in when is the right time to exercise my right to self defense. With the huge number of stupid out there, sure lets do CC... Meth heads, drunks, drugies...  lets give em all a right to wander around with a loaded weapon in their pocket. May your kids live a long & healthy life just like the "non"? CC in Chicago.  

Again more liberal thinking, the saving of 1 life, nor 10,000 lives is a valid reason to infringe on my God given rights.  Just because it *might* save a life somewhere down the line does not justify the infringement.

And here is a hint, those druggie's and low life's already have guns, we see that every week in the arrest stats here in TN, all the HCP system is doing is preventing hard working low to medium income people from carrying a firearm to protect themselves.

BTW, we just recently added unlicensed carry in your car, there has been no uptick in crime, or homicides in this state, extending this right to every otherwise law abiding citizen poses virtually no risk to the public.

[JayC]

On 11/25/2016 at 7:59 PM, Oh Shoot said:

He's proposing changing law so that if you aren't charged in a shooting incident, also can't be sued.

- OS

We already have that law don't we?

[shotgunshooter]

Of course you do, bringing you liberal big government dribble from NY down here

Why not have an 8 hour safety course when buying a 5 gallon bucket?  More children drown in a 5 gallon bucket every year than children (under the age of 12) die from gun violence from themselves or the hands of another child.  

I believe firearms training is a good thing, but the government requiring it to own and/or carry a gun is a waste of time and money.  Remember that police officers with all of their training are 5 times more likely than an average citizen to kill an innocent person in a self defense shooting.  Many of them receiving little or no training.

It's a constitutional right to bear arms, and there should be no litmus test on exercising that right.

Cops are always less likely to hit who they are shooting at when compared to civilians and criminals.

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[Cruel Hand Luke]

57 minutes ago, JayC said:

Of course you do, bringing you liberal big government dribble from NY down here

 

That is an interesting phenomenon......people grow tired of the yoke of oppressive government in liberal states and then move to more conservative states to enjoy the lower cost of living, more family friendly culture and more freedom....then they promptly get to the new state and start voting for the same kind of liberal candidates they voted for back in NJ, NY, CA, IL, MA, etc because that is who their families have always voted for and soon the new place starts to look just like the $hithole they left before.....

Edited November 28, 2016 by Cruel Hand Luke

[xtriggerman]

17 minutes ago, Cruel Hand Luke said:

That is an interesting phenomenon......people grow tired of the yoke of oppressive government in liberal states and then move to more conservative states to enjoy the lower cost of living, more family friendly culture and more freedom....then they promptly get to the new state and start voting for the same kind of liberal candidates they voted for back in NJ, NY, CA, IL, MA, etc because that is who their families have always voted for and soon the new place starts to look just like the $hithole they left before.....

In my case, you couldn't be more wrong.  Im from a place that's far, far more rural than here. As I got older, my conservative votes became absolutely worthless due to city folks moving to the back woods. I understand exactly what your point is. I lived it up close and personal. If CC comes to TN fine, You guys think Im going to stop it or fight it coming in?  Wow, Funny thing is, I felt that same way you all feel about it until I was in close contact with "stupid" too many times. Maybe I'm wrong about a good NRA sanctioned training course as a litmus test. We are all potential militia according to the Constitution and rightly so. WE are homeland security and as such I don't agree with restricting FA weapons or all the other nonsence of NFA since the Gov has them. So who the heck you all think your dealing with is now blown way, way, out of proportion.  I just don't want to get shot by some nit wit who has little to no idea on how to manage his weapon. And the answer to that has always been a responsibility issue. Where is the best place to get it? from your Dad when you are little maybe like I had shown my little ones why you never play with real guns by deer wounds and ice blocks blowning up from a 44m hit. It worked for me but there are a **it load of single parents here in TN that is never a good thing.  Then on the other hand, there are too dam many people on the planet as is so if we loose a few due to stupid every now and again, their number was going to be up weather by gun or car or tree. I'll say it AGAIN, Training is never going to be a catch all in misshaps we all can agree on that. There will always be a level of irresponsibility in everything, I understand that as we all do. I just happen to "like" training. I think it does in fact bring non gun folks up to the realization of the responsibility they are undertaking. There was one old woman at my HCP class that was asked to come back simply because she couldn't hit the target....at all. I wish ALL folks had the good sense to at least have friends get them to the point of hitting what your looking at. Only one guy backed me up here on this sort of thing and sadly, no one seconded the Eddy Eagle program. Loosen your shorts up folks, they sky isn't falling!

[chances R]

xtriggerman, I see exactly what you want........a perfect world, and it is not going to happen.  You cannot fix stupid.  NDs happen even with experienced, well-trained gun owners as well as trained LEO.  Accidents and negligent owners will still exist. People take HCP classes now and for the most part will do no additional training let alone carry routinely.  IMO a basic HCP class may facilitate a Universally recognized permit, but an easy to read, well publicized state web site that can be reviewed would come closer to helping more people in regard to legalities and safety. 

[JayC]

11 minutes ago, xtriggerman said:

In my case, you couldn't be more wrong.  Im from a place that's far, far more rural than here. As I got older, my conservative votes became absolutely worthless due to city folks moving to the back woods. I understand exactly what your point is. I lived it up close and personal. If CC comes to TN fine, You guys think Im going to stop it or fight it coming in?  Wow, Funny thing is, I felt that same way you all feel about it until I was in close contact with "stupid" too many times. Maybe I'm wrong about a good NRA sanctioned training course as a litmus test. We are all potential militia according to the Constitution and rightly so. WE are homeland security and as such I don't agree with restricting FA weapons or all the other nonsence of NFA since the Gov has them. So who the heck you all think your dealing with is now blown way, way, out of proportion.  I just don't want to get shot by some nit wit who has little to no idea on how to manage his weapon. And the answer to that has always been a responsibility issue. Where is the best place to get it? from your Dad when you are little maybe like I had shown my little ones why you never play with real guns by deer wounds and ice blocks blowning up from a 44m hit. It worked for me but there are a **it load of single parents here in TN that is never a good thing.  Then on the other hand, there are too dam many people on the planet as is so if we loose a few due to stupid every now and again, their number was going to be up weather by gun or car or tree. I'll say it AGAIN, Training is never going to be a catch all in misshaps we all can agree on that. There will always be a level of irresponsibility in everything, I understand that as we all do. I just happen to "like" training. I think it does in fact bring non gun folks up to the realization of the responsibility they are undertaking. There was one old woman at my HCP class that was asked to come back simply because she couldn't hit the target....at all. I wish ALL folks had the good sense to at least have friends get them to the point of hitting what your looking at. Only one guy backed me up here on this sort of thing and sadly, no one seconded the Eddy Eagle program. Loosen your shorts up folks, they sky isn't falling!

Many of us aren't big fans of the Negotiating Rights Away...  They tend to support stupid legislation that is designed to line the pockets of instructors and ranges, instead of removing unconstitutional laws altogether.

Training is great, I think more people should get more firearms training, but I don't think the government should make it a requirement under any circumstance.  The data just doesn't back up your argument, states that have passed CC haven't seen a rising in crime, a rise in ND's, nor a rise in children related firearms deaths.  

You do realize that every state that touches TN except for 1 (GA) allows every law abiding citizen to carry a firearm without a permit, with no training required what so ever, and blood isn't running in the streets?

I know I'm giving you a hard time about coming from NY state, and I realize that lots of areas of NY state are rural and comparability more conservative that NYC, but I think you'll find with few exceptions that a republican in NY is a very liberal democrat here in TN.  I know you can't help yourself, you've spent decades behind enemy lines, but freedom means something down here, and many of us think government at it's best is a necessary evil, and we're far from 'best' even here in TN.