Tn. Constutional carry

[owejia]

Went to a political rally for my state rep. Andy Holt last week, asked Andy about Constutional carry and  was told that Speaker Harwell is the problem . Andy said anything to do with guns was a no-no for her. Exactly what is her problem with the Constution?  Andy also said he thought we could get Constutional carry through the House next year, if Harwell didn't fight it. Do we need to lobby Harwell to support it? Maybe do an e-mail campaign as TGO members state wide to lobby Harwell to support it. Comments or suggestions. Thanks

[RED333]

1 hour ago, owejia said:

Exactly what is her problem with the Constution?

She is a RINO of the worst kind.

[300winmag]

You probably would need to effectively lobby key positions such as committee chairs, house speaker, and LT governor to get something like that through.  Without those positions on board, it is not getting through the legislature.i

In my opinion, you need to fix some of the present off limits locations in order to have effective constitutional carry.  What good is constitutional carry if you can't legally carry in certain locations?  If constitutional carry were passed today, there would be a bunch of places you will not be able to legally carry in this state.

Edited October 21, 2016 by 300winmag

[btq96r]

Annual issue.  Introduced in committee, legislative tricks used to kill it with some version of plausible deniability.  Hard to find money and candidates in state rep races to challenge the entrenched ones, and it's not like the Republican supermajority is worried about anyone voting Democrat in the general, so no pressure to deliver on certain issues.

[mikegideon]

Not a great big deal to me. I would like to see it. But, I am well covered with a permit. And, adding car carry without a permit was real helpful to the masses. I'm certainly not worried about "blood flowing in the streets".

Since the legislators feel that they have it covered already, I can see why they wouldn't want to risk any backlash.

[bersaguy]

Just my Humble opinion I don't think it will pass because of all the money being made by the state on permit purchases and renewals. I don't think the Governor would sign it if it did make it to his desk......JMHO

[ken56]

6 hours ago, bersaguy said:

Just my Humble opinion I don't think it will pass because of all the money being made by the state on permit purchases and renewals. I don't think the Governor would sign it if it did make it to his desk......JMHO

I agree with this. Its a pretty big revenue generator and politicians do not like giving up a revenue stream. Even if it made it to Haslam's desk he would veto it. I have no faith in his conservatism and commitment to its ideals. While some may feel that a permission slip or permit rather, is good enough cover I have to ask, how does one exercise their constitutional right to bear arms if the state controls who gets permits? What happens when the state decides to tighten the constraints on permits and throws in registering your guns or you don't get a permit? Think they can't do that ? I don't put anything past them. Wet your finger, raise it high into the wind and see which way its blowing.

[dcloudy777]

On 10/21/2016 at 6:38 PM, ken56 said:

I agree with this. Its a pretty big revenue generator and politicians do not like giving up a revenue stream. Even if it made it to Haslam's desk he would veto it. I have no faith in his conservatism and commitment to its ideals. While some may feel that a permission slip or permit rather, is good enough cover I have to ask, how does one exercise their constitutional right to bear arms if the state controls who gets permits? What happens when the state decides to tighten the constraints on permits and throws in registering your guns or you don't get a permit? Think they can't do that ? I don't put anything past them. Wet your finger, raise it high into the wind and see which way its blowing.

 

WHY is it a revenue stream?  At least make the politicians stand up and say out loud that HCP holders are being grossly overcharged. 

[hipower]

1 hour ago, dcloudy777 said:

 

WHY is it a revenue stream?  At least make the politicians stand up and say out loud that HCP holders are being grossly overcharged. 

Why? Because they can. Actually it's almost that simple. Give any group the power to levy taxes, and the tax revenue sources will be found. If it just happens to be something a specialized group likes or wants, all the better. Tax them for the privilege. They won't grip, and if they do...so what. The politicos have the power. We don't.

[shotgunshooter]

Not gonna happen anytime soon. If the politicians aren't shooting it down then it's the gun culture. While I used to be all for Constitutional carry I have finally given up on it happening. I turn 21 soon enough so it makes no difference at this point.

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[JayC]

Harwell is a simple problem to fix...  just need to find somebody in her district with a last name that comes before H and primary her out...  then let the democrats pickup that seat.  

[dcloudy777]

Harwell most definitely needs to go.  States that aren't anywhere near as "red" as Tennessee are making things like constitutional carry happen.  It's frustrating.

[ken56]

Harwell is not going anywhere. She was re-elected speaker I do believe. So now what? I have to ask too, just what does constitutional carry mean to YOU? People have differing views on just about everything. Constitutional carry does not mean unrestricted carry, does it?  If TN should happen to get it passed would all the restrictions TN has in place on firearm carry/possession in public be void? Certainly it would be dependent on how a new bill would be worded but we know our legislators have a certain opposition to this issue. Would you want to see totally unrestricted carry or are some restrictions necessary?

[300winmag]

Federal gun free school zones act would still apply to people without permits even if the state weapons criminal offenses were removed.  Unless other parts of the weapons statute was modified, it would still be illegal to carry on 'posted property', K-12 schools, and colleges.

We could legally carry on K-12 school property and inside K-12 schools WITH a permit if our state law allowed it.

Right now with the make up of the legislature and governor, I'd rather limited time spent on removing restrictions on permits VS time spent on constitutional carry in 2017.  I don't see the point in spending time on something just to make a political statement when you could use that same time on something that can actually pass.  Politicians will only entertain so many gun bills each year.

Time was wasted in 2016 on bills that honestly had zero positive effect for people with or without permits.  Bills like the 'posted property liability' law and changes to company HR related weapons policies were just political noise for politicians to appear pro gun in an election year.  The same time could have been spent on removing the 'no gun sign' criminal law and also putting in an exemption for people with permits on school property.  Those two things would make carry legal in a lot more places.

Edited November 18, 2016 by 300winmag

[Erik88]

On ‎10‎/‎24‎/‎2016 at 0:08 PM, hipower said:

Why? Because they can. Actually it's almost that simple. Give any group the power to levy taxes, and the tax revenue sources will be found. If it just happens to be something a specialized group likes or wants, all the better. Tax them for the privilege. They won't grip, and if they do...so what. The politicos have the power. We don't.

Have we ever determined how much money the state of TN receives from HCP permits? I'm just curious honestly.

[hipower]

42 minutes ago, Erik88 said:

Have we ever determined how much money the state of TN receives from HCP permits? I'm just curious honestly.

Seems like I saw some figures and comments here a while back. OhShoot can probably come up with it.

[Oh Shoot]

19 minutes ago, hipower said:

Seems like I saw some figures and comments here a while back. OhShoot can probably come up with it.

Can only point you to current permit holder data from TNDOS:

https://www.tn.gov/assets/entities/safety/attachments/Current_HG_PermitHolders.pdf

So it's simple to know that initial outlay from all current holders was $116,208,600. Beyond that would take some figuring and guesstimating, plus this doesn't take into account whatever % at some point did not renew their permits or the small % that had them pulled.

There's data back to 2008 there too:

https://www.tn.gov/safety/article/handgun

But you'd sorta have to guesstimate a renewal percentage x renewal fee per year and stuff like that.

Also, of course, you'd have to know true admin costs, fingerprinting contract, and whatnot to know just how much wound up as "profit" in the state coffers.

There are ATF statistics about 4473s per state per year too. 2015 there were about 650,000 in TN, so that's $6.5 million right there.

https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/nics_firearm_checks_-_month_year_by_state.pdf/view

- OS

Edited November 18, 2016 by Oh Shoot

[JayC]

On 11/18/2016 at 11:47 AM, Erik88 said:

Have we ever determined how much money the state of TN receives from HCP permits? I'm just curious honestly.

By law the state general fund gets $0 from HCP, and in theory if they did away with all the HCP money the only jobs lost at TDOS would be the make work jobs running the permit setup.  They work really hard to 'waste' aka spend all the HCP money in creative ways... to stay within state law.

[xtriggerman]

    I don't think Constitutional carry is a good idea. Last year I went threw the HCP course and found it a very good idea for every one there including me! and I have had a NY HCP for 35 years and a 25 year retired State Corrections officer to boot. What the MOST important area here in TN that needs changing is the exoneration from civil court if one is found justified in a shooting by the DA. You guys complain about the cost of a HCP and true, it could certainly be less but consider that to mount a Legal defense in court you can add another digit to the $300 HCP cost just to get things started. 

   Secondly, if you think you are doing society a favor in allowing every Tom, Dick and Harriet a favor by calling for essentially a DL carry, you are sadly mistaken. I had a full service Gun Shop for 14 years and I cant tell you how many times I was covered by some nit wit with his action closed gun while I stood behind the gun counter. Today was a funeral for my wife's friends, 3 year old grandson. That boy was fatally shot in the neck by his 10 year old brother that found Dad's hand gun. This past summer, the same thing happened in the Crossville Verizon parking lot when a 5 year old fatally shot his 3 year brother in the car while Mom was in the store.   NEVER, EVER think less or no training in gun handling is a good idea. Personally I would make the 8 hour permit course tougher in the safe handling and child proof storage of firearms. Furthermore, I would be more than happy to pony up a $300 life time HCP as long as that money was used to mandate the NRA Eddy Eagle gun safety program for grade school kids. I Love my 2nd A rights but never think that loaded guns and training are separate issues.

[mikegideon]

52 minutes ago, xtriggerman said:

    I don't think Constitutional carry is a good idea. Last year I went threw the HCP course and found it a very good idea for every one there including me! and I have had a NY HCP for 35 years and a 25 year retired State Corrections officer to boot. What the MOST important area here in TN that needs changing is the exoneration from civil court if one is found justified in a shooting by the DA. You guys complain about the cost of a HCP and true, it could certainly be less but consider that to mount a Legal defense in court you can add another digit to the $300 HCP cost just to get things started. 

   Secondly, if you think you are doing society a favor in allowing every Tom, Dick and Harriet a favor by calling for essentially a DL carry, you are sadly mistaken. I had a full service Gun Shop for 14 years and I cant tell you how many times I was covered by some nit wit with his action closed gun while I stood behind the gun counter. Today was a funeral for my wife's friends, 3 year old grandson. That boy was fatally shot in the neck by his 10 year old brother that found Dad's hand gun. This past summer, the same thing happened in the Crossville Verizon parking lot when a 5 year old fatally shot his 3 year brother in the car while Mom was in the store.   NEVER, EVER think less or no training in gun handling is a good idea. Personally I would make the 8 hour permit course tougher in the safe handling and child proof storage of firearms. Furthermore, I would be more than happy to pony up a $300 life time HCP as long as that money was used to mandate the NRA Eddy Eagle gun safety program for grade school kids. I Love my 2nd A rights but never think that loaded guns and training are separate issues.

Opinions are great and all, but let's see some stats on constitutional carry states. No reason to speculate, since there are a number of them.

I'll agree that training is always good. But, stupid kills, and it ain't always with a gun. Letting a kid get ahold of a loaded gun, and have it turn into a homicide is a special kind of stupid. 

[xtriggerman]

 "Letting a kid get ahold of a loaded gun, and have it turn into a homicide is a special kind of stupid."

I agree and as for stupid stats, lets start with 64,223,958 blue state votes. Not that Trump votes are immune for stupid but the pool of stupid in the country has a lot of company. Only 11 states are now CC and most all have just recently fallen into that category. I can only hope to be pleasantly surprised if those 11 states can maintain the same annual number of public/private accidental handgun shootings as they were under HCP rules as the years roll by. 

Edited November 24, 2016 by xtriggerman

[gregintenn]

11 hours ago, xtriggerman said:

    I don't think Constitutional carry is a good idea. Last year I went threw the HCP course and found it a very good idea for every one there including me! and I have had a NY HCP for 35 years and a 25 year retired State Corrections officer to boot. What the MOST important area here in TN that needs changing is the exoneration from civil court if one is found justified in a shooting by the DA. You guys complain about the cost of a HCP and true, it could certainly be less but consider that to mount a Legal defense in court you can add another digit to the $300 HCP cost just to get things started. 

   Secondly, if you think you are doing society a favor in allowing every Tom, Dick and Harriet a favor by calling for essentially a DL carry, you are sadly mistaken. I had a full service Gun Shop for 14 years and I cant tell you how many times I was covered by some nit wit with his action closed gun while I stood behind the gun counter. Today was a funeral for my wife's friends, 3 year old grandson. That boy was fatally shot in the neck by his 10 year old brother that found Dad's hand gun. This past summer, the same thing happened in the Crossville Verizon parking lot when a 5 year old fatally shot his 3 year brother in the car while Mom was in the store.   NEVER, EVER think less or no training in gun handling is a good idea. Personally I would make the 8 hour permit course tougher in the safe handling and child proof storage of firearms. Furthermore, I would be more than happy to pony up a $300 life time HCP as long as that money was used to mandate the NRA Eddy Eagle gun safety program for grade school kids. I Love my 2nd A rights but never think that loaded guns and training are separate issues.

Sounds like you need to move back to New York.

The guy who taught our carry permit class pointed a cocked and loaded 1911 at the entire class. You aren't going to fix stupid.

Training is a great idea, but I don't find anything in the second amendment about a permit.

[ken56]

I agree with the stupid kills and there is no denying training is a good thing, but that training is incumbent upon the individual to get to a certain level of competency, but who is the setter of that level? What should happen to a person who allows a child to get hold of a loaded weapon? Seems I read about an incident that happened in Washington state, a man went into a store and while gone his young son got his pistol out of the glove box and shot his younger sister. He was a police officer. Stupid crosses all lines.

I also agree there are other issues to deal with first in this state. Signs that carry the force of law is one. But again I ask, what restrictions are appropriate, if any at all, (shall not be infringed) or are we comfortable with even "stupid" people carrying a firearm, keeping in mind that one mans stupid could be another mans genius. Does constitutional carry mean unrestricted carry to you ?  Does the state have the authority to set training and licensing mandates? Some states have unlicensed open carry. Would  we like that here in TN? Castle Doctrine protections?  They differ state to state. Is TN castle doctrine at a level satisfactory to you?

 

 

[Erik88]

This thread is proof that Elmer Fudd's still exist in the gun community. We need to be united in this fight to push for additional freedoms.

The state should never have the right to "allow" us to exercise a constitutional right.

Taking the TN drivers license test doesn't make someone a good driver any more than taking a carry permit class makes us responsible gun owners.

[xtriggerman]

In a perfect world CC is great. Reality dictates different. The HCP instructor here at Daves Pawn covered the issues of responsible carry very well. Will every CC individual study the use of deadly force as related to court precedence? Maybe but stupid is alive and well and if the stats start going against gun ownership in those CC states, be ready for a push back against the 2nd. As for bad judgment from those who should know better, you will never hear about the cases where the safety course was instrumental not letting that "accident" happen. If the Safety course is instrumental in keeping one person from getting accidentally shot, Im all for it. Its a small price to pay and frankly the State reps that matter seem to agree. I never said Training is a catch all but as someone who has carried concealed for 35 years, my training in Use of Deadly Force and legal ramifications has made me far more conscientious in when is the right time to exercise my right to self defense. With the huge number of stupid out there, sure lets do CC... Meth heads, drunks, drugies...  lets give em all a right to wander around with a loaded weapon in their pocket. May your kids live a long & healthy life just like the "non"? CC in Chicago.