TWD Season 7

[Oh Shoot]

On 10/22/2016 at 9:31 PM, NextExit said:

Spoiler alert.... of course it may be pure considering the source but at least it's a different theory We'll find out in less than 24 hours..... maybe....

https://www.reddit.com/r/thewalkingdead/comments/58gzpo/major_spoilers_season_7_episode_1_qa_from_the/?st=IULWROXU&sh=6cf705b8

Well, that inside dope was spot on.

So, they did the "screenwriting justice" in my long held opinion re Glenn, and in a doubly tricky way and added even more!  Wowie wow wow.

- OS

[No_0ne]

Let me guess, next week the group comes across a world-renowned brain surgeon who is able to reconstruct Glenn's brain ...

[NextExit]

Who would've thought that spoiler on reddit would be right?   Gotta say Negan is great!  Gonna be a terrific season.

[JAB]

On 10/20/2016 at 3:41 PM, Lumber_Jack said:

I've have come to the conclusion that aside from this whole "living dead thing" it takes so real artistic license to believe that someone like Negan could exist. So they get captured for a short time and he clubs a couple people, that I can believe.  But as soon as I was turned loose, one set of camo and an AR and I could guarantee Negan's head would look like a watermelon after a Gallagher show.    Just shoot the mother####er, am I oversimplifying this? 

I see it very differently.  In history there have ALWAYS been people like Negan.  Negan has the Saviors.  Negan isn't the Governor with a few henchmen.  Negan has a literal army.  They are Attila and his Hun army.  I am sure plenty of folks would have liked to pick up a sword and destroy Attila after he rolled through their village but it never happened.  It would kind of be like saying, "Why didn't somebody just grab a gun and take out Stalin?"  Even if someone did there is STILL an army to deal with - an army that might not like that you killed their leader and would probably take it out on your group.  Heck, if that little freak who is the current leader of North Korea hasn't been taken out, yet then I have no problem accepting Negan.  For that matter I think there would be more like him in an apocalyptic world than TWD has shown.

Edited October 24, 2016 by JAB

[JAB]

On 10/19/2016 at 7:45 PM, Oh Shoot said:

I'm still more creeped out by the head bashing lineup at the blood trough at Terminus. The simulated sound of that aluminum bat hitting their noggins one after the other down the line is still most shiver inducing for me.

- OS

That scene was more disturbing, ironically, because it was so relatively 'sterile'.  Negan was pissed and making a point so as brutal as it was there was emotion behind it.  At Terminus it was just a matter-of-fact, cold-blooded thing that was, literally, like they were just slaughtering animals.  As horrible as the Negan/Lucille scene is at least there was an element of humanity - a dark element - of humanity to Negan.  He is a monster but the Terminus people were SOULLESS monsters.

[suspiciousmind]

This is gonna be the best season yet. Negan is an awesome bad guy!

[JAB]

13 hours ago, suspiciousmind said:

This is gonna be the best season yet. Negan is an awesome bad guy!

I won't give any possible spoilers but if the show follows the comics then some people will love it and some will hate it.  Either way, based solely on what has happened on the show, itself I think it is safe to say that this season marks the turning point between, "how do we survive the zombie apocalypse" and "okay, we've mostly got the short term surviving zombies thing down so now how do we survive each other and begin to truly rebuild for the long term?"  I expect the zombies to still play an important 'role' but the 'role' they will play will likely be very different going forward.  On The Talking Dead they mentioned that some people are calling this premier and the upcoming season a sort of 'reset' for the show.  I think that sounds about right.  I also think it is a good idea and not only because that follows the source material.  I think it is good for the possible continued longevity of the show because it serendipitously comes at a time when the whole zombie craze is dying down (pun intended) in our society.  As the fad wanes I suspect that a 'zombie show' would be cancelled pretty soon but a show with strong story lines about people and how they not only survive but begin coming back from the brink of destruction that happens to also have zombies might make it.  Further, I think those who say, "But it is a show about zombies," are and have always been wrong.  It is a show about people surviving in a world where society as we know it no longer exists and just happens to have been destroyed by zombies.  There is a huge difference.  Yeah, the show is called The Walking Dead but remember that, in the context of the show, 'the walking dead' doesn't refer to the zombies (or 'walkers'.)  Instead 'the walking dead' refers to the survivors, just as in a speech that Rick made to the others several seasons back when he described their situation by telling them, "We are the walking dead," (see the clip below.) So even the title of the show refers to the survivors doing whatever it takes to live and not the zombies.  Anyhow, if the story takes the direction I think it will then some people - those who just find a story about surviving and rebuilding after a TEOTWAWKI event interesting and who still like zombies as part of that story - will like it.  Those who just want a show purely or mostly about fighting zombies likely will not.

 

Edited October 24, 2016 by JAB

[NoBanStan]

Wonder if there's a "psychopaths per square mile" statistic in the Walking Dead universe. I totally get that society has broken down but man...it's hard to fathom that "most" folks wouldn't yurn to hold on to some scrap of what life used to be like. But in that show you can't walk 10 feet without coming across some lunatic.

[JAB]

44 minutes ago, NoBanStan said:

Wonder if there's a "psychopaths per square mile" statistic in the Walking Dead universe. I totally get that society has broken down but man...it's hard to fathom that "most" folks wouldn't yurn to hold on to some scrap of what life used to be like. But in that show you can't walk 10 feet without coming across some lunatic.

My thought is that those folks who just wanted to hold on to what life used to be like either:

1. Got eaten because they couldn't bring themselves to put a bullet in mama's brain once she turned.

2. Couldn't take the new reality and ate their gun

3. Eventually took a permanent vacation from themselves and became 'someone else' (like the Governor - psychopath #1 - who was a nice if weak guy before the apocalypse and ended up adopting his less-nice, tougher, dead brother's persona)

4. Took the approach that Rick et al, have taken in accepting that they can't have things that way right now but if they make it through at first then maybe they can have some of those things back later.  I think the problem becomes that, after a point, they can't go back to the way they were even if everything else suddenly went back to 'normal'.  After all, if you really look at it, even the main group of protagonists are not exactly well balanced or even very 'heroic' at this point. 

Personally, I don't think that Negan is a psychopath.  Some of his Saviors definitely are but he isn't.  That is what makes him such an interesting character.  A psychopath has the excuse that he/she doesn't really grasp 'right and wrong'.  I think that Negan does but that he, ironically, has adopted the same approach that Rick has adopted - do whatever it takes to survive. Many of his non-psychopathic Saviors have, as well.  Dale held on to who he had been and Dale died.  Tyreese held on to who he had been and Tyreese died.  Herschel held on to who he had been and Herschel died.  Heck, it says right there in their name that the Saviors seem to think that they are 'saving' what is left of the world.  Even bashing in the heads of a couple of members of Rick's group could be seen as his idea of 'serving the greater good'.  After all, I think Negan is also a brilliant strategist who knows what makes people tick and (from his viewpoint) if he can set an example by doing something horrific and terrifying to a couple of people - even if it is something that would have made his former self sick to even contemplate -  then maybe he won't have to kill the rest of the group and there can be a more or less peaceful future between them.  He says as much right before the Saviors leave at the end of the premier with his, "We did it.  Together.  Even the dead guys," speech about it having been a 'productive' day.  The Saviors don't think they are the 'bad guys' because there are no 'bad guys' and there are no 'good guys' - there are only those who survive and those who don't.  Remember Rick saying to his group, when they first came to Alexandria, that if the Alexandrians tried to make them leave then they would take Alexandria from them by force?  Remember Rick running that 'cop' down and killing him to keep him from going back to the group that had Beth?  That sounds a whole lot more like Negan than it sounds like 'officer friendly' Rick from the first season.  Negan is just willing to take the idea of 'anything to survive' further than Rick will (maybe.)  The biggest difference - aside from the obvious 'cold blooded' factor of the Negan/Lucille scene - is that we see things largely through Rick's eyes and so, just as Rick does, we can often justify his actions based on his point of view even when other, still mostly 'normal' people are looking at him with shock and horror.  There are currently only two semi-long term members of the group who have behaved in sort of the manner you describe.  Those members are the reverend (who was shocked and horrified when Rick and his group put the Terminus people on their knees and bashed their heads in - hey, that kinda sounds familiar except they didn't let any of the Terminus folks live) and Morgan during his 'hippie' phase - and we pretty much hated both of them until they got with the program and started killing.

Edited October 24, 2016 by JAB

[NoBanStan]

1 hour ago, JAB said:

My thought is that those folks who just wanted to hold on to what life used to be like either:

1. Got eaten because they couldn't bring themselves to put a bullet in mama's brain once she turned.

2. Couldn't take the new reality and ate their gun

3. Eventually took a permanent vacation from themselves and became 'someone else' (like the Governor - psychopath #1 - who was a nice if weak guy before the apocalypse and ended up adopting his less-nice, tougher, dead brother's persona)

4. Took the approach that Rick et al, have taken in accepting that they can't have things that way right now but if they make it through at first then maybe they can have some of those things back later.  I think the problem becomes that, after a point, they can't go back to the way they were even if everything else suddenly went back to 'normal'.  After all, if you really look at it, even the main group of protagonists are not exactly well balanced or even very 'heroic' at this point. 

Personally, I don't think that Negan is a psychopath.  Some of his Saviors definitely are but he isn't.  That is what makes him such an interesting character.  A psychopath has the excuse that he/she doesn't really grasp 'right and wrong'.  I think that Negan does but that he, ironically, has adopted the same approach that Rick has adopted - do whatever it takes to survive. Many of his non-psychopathic Saviors have, as well.  Dale held on to who he had been and Dale died.  Tyreese held on to who he had been and Tyreese died.  Herschel held on to who he had been and Herschel died.  Heck, it says right there in their name that the Saviors seem to think that they are 'saving' what is left of the world.  Even bashing in the heads of a couple of members of Rick's group could be seen as his idea of 'serving the greater good'.  After all, I think Negan is also a brilliant strategist who knows what makes people tick and (from his viewpoint) if he can set an example by doing something horrific and terrifying to a couple of people - even if it is something that would have made his former self sick to even contemplate -  then maybe he won't have to kill the rest of the group and there can be a more or less peaceful future between them.  He says as much right before the Saviors leave at the end of the premier with his, "We did it.  Together.  Even the dead guys," speech about it having been a 'productive' day.  The Saviors don't think they are the 'bad guys' because there are no 'bad guys' and there are no 'good guys' - there are only those who survive and those who don't.  Remember Rick saying to his group, when they first came to Alexandria, that if the Alexandrians tried to make them leave then they would take Alexandria from them by force?  Remember Rick running that 'cop' down and killing him to keep him from going back to the group that had Beth?  That sounds a whole lot more like Negan than it sounds like 'officer friendly' Rick from the first season.  Negan is just willing to take the idea of 'anything to survive' further than Rick will (maybe.)  The biggest difference - aside from the obvious 'cold blooded' factor of the Negan/Lucille scene - is that we see things largely through Rick's eyes and so, just as Rick does, we can often justify his actions based on his point of view even when other, still mostly 'normal' people are looking at him with shock and horror.  There are currently only two semi-long term members of the group who have behaved in sort of the manner you describe.  Those members are the reverend (who was shocked and horrified when Rick and his group put the Terminus people on their knees and bashed their heads in - hey, that kinda sounds familiar except they didn't let any of the Terminus folks live) and Morgan during his 'hippie' phase - and we pretty much hated both of them until they got with the program and started killing.

While I see your point, he brutally smashed in the skulls of two men to prove a point and made jokes about it along the way. If that's not psychopathic, I want to know the criteria that would make him so.  

[NextExit]

Psychopathic? nah... I call it a power trip.

[monkeylizard]

Just like with Terminus, Carol will have to ride in and save the day.

[Hershmeister]

The scene with negan forcing rick to chop off carl's arm was brilliant - a total tip of the hat to the story of Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac ....

[Chucktshoes]

[monkeylizard]

I don't get it. Who's the guy getting whacked?

Edited October 25, 2016 by monkeylizard

[JAB]

22 hours ago, NoBanStan said:

While I see your point, he brutally smashed in the skulls of two men to prove a point and made jokes about it along the way. If that's not psychopathic, I want to know the criteria that would make him so.  

I honestly don't think that was psychopathic.  Instead I think it was an example of a normal person who has been 'bent' and had what he is willing to do changed by the horror of the zombie apocalypse combined with a brilliant leader and tactician who is not well balanced but who was also 'playing to his audience'.  The back story I have heard is that Negan was a gym teacher before the outbreak.  I doubt he went out on day one and started bashing people's heads in.  Instead, I imagine he has slowly and steadily gotten to that point in the years that have passed since his old life ended.  I am not justifying his actions, just saying that I don't think he has the excuse of being a psychopath (no insanity defense here, in other words.)  Again, I think he wanted to strike true terror into the rest of the group so he wouldn't need to go through all of this again.  Maybe it is his version of classroom management 101 twisted by the apocalypse.  He wanted to be the 'big, bad monster' in their eyes, someone they would never even dare to think about crossing, and the best way to do that is to become this person who can joke while he bashes a couple of people's heads in.  To my thinking the whole thing was far too methodical and planned to have been carried out by a true psychopath.  Now, is Negan a sociopath (someone who knows right from wrong and gets off on having the power or intelligence to get away with doing wrong - kind of like at least some serial killers)?  Probably.  Yeah, I know that psychology now lumps psychopathic and sociopathic together as 'antisocial personality disorders' but traditionally there is a difference.  One of those differences has been that being a 'psychopath' can warrant an insanity defense while being a 'sociopath' does not.  Is Negan a megalomaniac?  Definitely.  Does Negan represent a cult of personality?  Well, he must be pretty charismatic and effective as a leader to have so many people following him when at least some of them probably don't agree with everything he does.  Again, unlike the Governor he doesn't hide his 'bad' side and his true plans from most of his people with only a few henchmen who know what is really going on.  Instead, he has a few hundred people (at least - I personally don't believe that all the Saviors were present at the head bashing) who know who he is and who still follow him.  Some probably do so out of fear or because they'd rather live under his rule than be alone 'out there' but some obviously really trust him and believe in him.

Edited October 25, 2016 by JAB

[JAB]

5 hours ago, Hershmeister said:

The scene with negan forcing rick to chop off carl's arm was brilliant - a total tip of the hat to the story of Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac ....

A bit of the 'sins of the father' thing, too.  Firstly, because Carl was going to lose an arm as a direct result of Rick having led his people to kill saviors.  Secondly because Carl was going to lose an arm as a direct result of Rick remaining defiant.  Lastly - and most brilliantly - karma because it was pretty much Rick's fault that Merle lost his arm waaaaaaay back in season one.

I think it also played to people's expectations.  Since comic book Rick has only one hand (the Governor chopped off the other one) when the preview of the scene where Negan sticks Rick's hatchet in his belt and drags Rick into the RV came out a whole lot of people expected (as seen earlier in this thread) that Negan was going to chop off Rick's hand.  Then he didn't but, because of that, it was 100% believable that Carl might end up losing his arm, instead.  I also think it sets up the story for the future.  Remember, Rick is a dad who once ripped a guy's throat out with his teeth because Carl was threatened.  Rick is also, in his own way, just about as 'mentally skewed' as Negan. 

Speaking of Carl, I think there was some foreshadowing of his future role when the group was carrying Maggie through the woods.  Did anyone else notice that, out of all the people who were there, Carl was leading the group?  I don't think that was accidental.  Yeah, he was walking alongside Rick (who was carrying the front of Maggie's stretcher with Abraham carrying the other end) part of the time but part of the time he was actually out in front by himself taking out walkers to protect the group while Sasha and Aaron walked along beside the stretcher.  Carl is a strapping, young lad and could likely just as easily have taken Rick's or Abraham's place carrying Maggie so that Rick (the leader) or Abraham (arguably the best, toughest fighter) could be freed up to lead and defend the group but instead Rick and Abraham were acting as litter bearers while Carl took point.  I liked it.  I know some people don't like Carl but he is and has long been one of my favorite characters on the show (and in the comics) - sometimes more than Rick.  Rick says he will do whatever needs to be done to survive and protect the group (and he has lived up to that more lately) but Carl is the one who has actually done it pretty much all along even when Rick was still being wishy-washy about it.  Also, despite Negan's 'future serial killer' remark, Carl seems to be able to do 'whatever is necessary' without losing himself while Rick slides a little bit further from 'well balanced' with every new thing he is forced to confront.  From going into the catacombs below the prison (by himself, mind you) to save Tyreese and his group to shooting the Governor's guy who kept walking toward him (and Beth, Judith and Herschel) while refusing to drop his gun to putting Rick in his place regarding how not doing what needs to be done gets people in the group killed (when he points out that if Rick had killed the Governor to start with that Lori, Merle and others would not have died.)  I don't know how much it will come to mean that Carl was out in front leading the group but I don't assume anyone in the show is 100% safe, including Rick.  In fact, early on in the comic (before the show ever existed) Kirkman said that he wasn't entirely sure what would happen and that, while the comic was mostly Rick's story in the beginning he wasn't sure that even Rick would survive the full run of the comics.

Edited October 25, 2016 by JAB

[Chucktshoes]

1 hour ago, monkeylizard said:

I don't get it. Who's the guy getting whacked?

Mr. Poopybutthole of course!

[TGO David]

2 hours ago, Chucktshoes said:

Mr. Poopybutthole of course!

Rick and Morty, FTW.

 

[KahrMan]

[hipower]

On ‎10‎/‎25‎/‎2016 at 2:05 PM, JAB said:

A bit of the 'sins of the father' thing, too.  Firstly, because Carl was going to lose an arm as a direct result of Rick having led his people to kill saviors.  Secondly because Carl was going to lose an arm as a direct result of Rick remaining defiant.  Lastly - and most brilliantly - karma because it was pretty much Rick's fault that Merle lost his arm waaaaaaay back in season one.

I think it also played to people's expectations.  Since comic book Rick has only one hand (the Governor chopped off the other one) when the preview of the scene where Negan sticks Rick's hatchet in his belt and drags Rick into the RV came out a whole lot of people expected (as seen earlier in this thread) that Negan was going to chop off Rick's hand.  Then he didn't but, because of that, it was 100% believable that Carl might end up losing his arm, instead.  I also think it sets up the story for the future.  Remember, Rick is a dad who once ripped a guy's throat out with his teeth because Carl was threatened.  Rick is also, in his own way, just about as 'mentally skewed' as Negan. 

Speaking of Carl, I think there was some foreshadowing of his future role when the group was carrying Maggie through the woods.  Did anyone else notice that, out of all the people who were there, Carl was leading the group?  I don't think that was accidental.  Yeah, he was walking alongside Rick (who was carrying the front of Maggie's stretcher with Abraham carrying the other end) part of the time but part of the time he was actually out in front by himself taking out walkers to protect the group while Sasha and Aaron walked along beside the stretcher.  Carl is a strapping, young lad and could likely just as easily have taken Rick's or Abraham's place carrying Maggie so that Rick (the leader) or Abraham (arguably the best, toughest fighter) could be freed up to lead and defend the group but instead Rick and Abraham were acting as litter bearers while Carl took point.  I liked it.  I know some people don't like Carl but he is and has long been one of my favorite characters on the show (and in the comics) - sometimes more than Rick.  Rick says he will do whatever needs to be done to survive and protect the group (and he has lived up to that more lately) but Carl is the one who has actually done it pretty much all along even when Rick was still being wishy-washy about it.  Also, despite Negan's 'future serial killer' remark, Carl seems to be able to do 'whatever is necessary' without losing himself while Rick slides a little bit further from 'well balanced' with every new thing he is forced to confront.  From going into the catacombs below the prison (by himself, mind you) to save Tyreese and his group to shooting the Governor's guy who kept walking toward him (and Beth, Judith and Herschel) while refusing to drop his gun to putting Rick in his place regarding how not doing what needs to be done gets people in the group killed (when he points out that if Rick had killed the Governor to start with that Lori, Merle and others would not have died.)  I don't know how much it will come to mean that Carl was out in front leading the group but I don't assume anyone in the show is 100% safe, including Rick.  In fact, early on in the comic (before the show ever existed) Kirkman said that he wasn't entirely sure what would happen and that, while the comic was mostly Rick's story in the beginning he wasn't sure that even Rick would survive the full run of the comics.

I like your assessment. I don't personally care for the Carl character, but this progression on the show has been...interesting? I do look forward to seeing where this goes.

[Garufa]

2 minutes ago, hipower said:

I like your assessment. I don't personally care for the Carl character, but this progression on the show has been...interesting? I do look forward to seeing where this goes.

Maybe he'll finally grow into that big-ass hat.

[hipower]

Just now, Garufa said:

Maybe he'll finally grow into that big-ass hat.

[Oh Shoot]

2 minutes ago, hipower said:

I like your assessment. I don't personally care for the Carl character, but this progression on the show has been...interesting? I do look forward to seeing where this goes.

Don't keep up with where the comic series is, but seems to me the writers may well have an end game for the series in mind. I mean now that the zeds have become for the most part just a major inconvenience and the real danger lies with other people, what evil can they posit that's gonna be more evil than Negan's outfit? Maybe the Democratic National Committee comes together again?

But really, another season or two of Alexandria, Hilltop, The Kingdom, whatever, finally all coming together and defeating evil and setting up the New World and all like that and fade out.

- OS

 

[hipower]

As a reformed comic collector, I can honestly say I've never read the first Walking Dead comic or book. So I can just roll along with the insane stories the writers come up with. So many holes in the story and improbable  (in a stated zombie apocolyse, improbable?)  actions and deeds, that I just have to watch and go along with it.

And yes, I did have to rescind my earlier disclaimer of not watching any more.