Dog Scenario

[btq96r]

So, this happened today, and I’d like some opinions, good, bad, and ugly.

What I’d like to hear is what did I do right, what did I do wrong, and what is in that fuzzy grey area that I need to think about in the future?  Legally is my primary concern, but mentally and otherwise is also a concern. 

 

Here’s the story:

While out walking late this morning, out of nowhere comes a dog to a stop about 5-7 feet away.  It came up on me so fast that out of sheer instinct, my gun comes out even faster than I do it at “combat speed” while practicing at the range, and it’s at the “low ready” which is just lower in my sight than where the dog is, so maybe a “dog high ready (?).”  I start to slowly walk away from the dog, and while it’s matching my movements, I notice that the dog isn’t behaving aggressively at that point so I relax, even if it’s just a little to an outward glance.  At almost the same time, someone from the other side of the street yells (attention loud, not shrieking loud) that the dog isn’t going to hurt me and calls the dog over to her, then proceeds to lead the dog back to its home.  With that, I relax a good bit more and bring the gun to my side, as another person (the owner I’m presuming) comes from the home the dog came from to collect it, as the lady makes the comment that I “almost shot the dog.”  As I’m re-holstering, they mention something about how I was never in danger.  I mutter a quick thanks and go on my way.  They didn’t say anything in return, and I didn’t stick around to have a chat about it.  The totality of everything that I just described was probably about 45 seconds.

After being able to get a look around, I realized the dog was obscured by a parked car in the driveway, which is how it managed to appear so suddenly.  Once I drew, my finger never touched the trigger; it was pressed against the guard as I held the gun.  I never had any intention to shoot unless the dog had started to bite me hard.  Once the situation developed, I stood down as safely as possible (mostly taking time in the act of re-holstering to ensure I did it safely).  The gun was never orientated towards a human at any angle of raised readiness, only towards the dog until I felt it wasn’t a threat.

 

I like to think I did well enough legally and otherwise, letting my brain have time to think as the situation allowed.  However, I can’t shake the feeling that I may have overlooked something.  Please…critique away.

[abusfullofnuns]

I think you were good to go.  I have had many dog encounters while riding and running around Nashville.  Usually, if you show aggression toward the mutt they will back off.  My first move is a deep, loud yell.  Next move is to move toward the threat and hopefully it retreats.

I don't think waiting to pull would have been the right thing to do.  If the dog was intent on attacking, you weren't going to get another chance. 

I have a protection trained Dutch Shepherd, and if he was unleashed and charged, I would expect that he would get shot.  Luckily, there is no way in hell he would move toward someone unless they presented an act of aggression.  

Good on you for not jumping the proverbial gun and ruining the day for everyone involved.

[peejman]

Sounds like you did fine to me. I supposed what you did could be considered brandishing, but that's a stretch IMO.  Also worth noting is there is a state wide leash law, which these folks clearly violated.  I've had dogs all my life and they get away sometimes, it happens.

Some folks know dogs and can read their body language to quickly determine intent, which would drive the decision to draw or not. 

That said, most dogs are really fast, much faster than people, so decision time is significantly compressed. If you hesitate half a second, the dog will be on you. 

[DWARREN123]

I would have notified the local police to make sure I was not seen as a one who was looking to shoot some thing.

Otherwise I think it went well. My dog will run up on you then flop down on his back so you could rub his stomach.

[Hozzie]

I am usually on the conservative side in favor of the dogs, but I see nothing wrong with what you did.  Size of the dog also comes into play.    I have done the same thing, meaning having my dog run up to someone wanting to say hello.  You don't know what their intent is.  I think you did all you could do under the circumstances.   In the moment, if it was my dog, I can see myself being less than hospitable, but after the adrenaline rush, I would calm down.  

 

[nightrunner]

I don't see how you could have handled it any better. Dogs are literally animals. Not one of us here would hesitate to draw down on a thug that we would call an animal if they came running at us in a threatening way. No difference here. You perceived a threat and took action to "stop the threat" (key phrase). Stopping the threat is allowable by law. 

 

Legally, I don't think you broke any law and even if you did I don't think a LEO would charge you if one had been called.

Mentally or otherwise, I don't think you did anything wrong. You weren't forced to pull the trigger.

[toby1304]

I think you responded appropriately in that moment, but I wonder if you could have worked to de-escalate the situation any. I want a gun owner to engage their brain before being so quick to engage their sidearm.

[tacops]

From your description I would say you are good to go.  I have been in the same situation on several occasions through my career and only once did I have to fire.  As it turned out the animal had been a terror to the area for several days engaging both animals and humans so there were no complaints.  

Edited September 19, 2016 by tacops

[Pain103]

All good. I have seen a few people put down dogs when they came at them and never were looked at twice as long as it wasn't a crazy shot. OC spray has been helpful in the past with dogs if I didn't want to pop them even if it didn't hit it usually scared them enough to run away.

[dawgdoc]

I had a boxer charge me and my dog at full speed as we walked down the road.  Besides a gun and knife, I also had an ultrasonic pet deterrent device.  I shot the sound gun at that dog--he yelped and ran back the way he came.  My dog also cowed, but it was better than getting in a fight.  The dog also remembered us on subsequent walks and stayed on his deck.

One thing I worry about if you had to shoot a dog is the pavement.  Can't bullets ricochet off concrete or asphalt and go in weird directions?  I recall a LEO who tried to shoot a woman's dog (who wasn't actually aggressive anyway), missed, and the bullet hit the woman in the leg.  I think I would have a hard time shooting down at a running dog and hitting it.  I would feel much more comfortable if it was on a lawn or dirt.

[deerslayer]

On ‎9‎/‎19‎/‎2016 at 2:46 PM, toby1304 said:

I think you responded appropriately in that moment, but I wonder if you could have worked to de-escalate the situation any. I want a gun owner to engage their brain before being so quick to engage their sidearm.

How does one "de-escalate" a situation with an approaching and/or charging dog?  No two dogs are alike, and an about-to-be-bitten gunowner may not have time to analyze a dog's personality.  As stated above, if he didn't draw when he did, he probably would not have had another chance if the dog had attacked. 

[gjohnsoniv]

Been there and done that. Don't see anything wrong with the method in which you handled it.  A neighbor of mine has a dog that does the same thing on my daily runs.  First time it happened it came out from a bush and got within a foot of me.  At this point it still charges me and barks like crazy while following me, but stops after a couple yards.

[toby1304]

10 hours ago, deerslayer said:

How  does one "de-escalate" a situation with an approaching and/or cha rging dog?  No two dogs are alike, and an about-to-be-bitten gunowner may not have time to analyze a dog's personality.  As stated above, if he didn't draw when he did, he probably would not have had another chance if the dog had attacked. 

Deerslayer , you are absolutely correct. I just think it's funny when someone gets on here and critiques and arm chair quarterbacks most every police shooting that is discussed on here then is so quick to draw his gun. As far as we know he was daydreaming and startled by a lap dog. He never mentioned the size or breed of the dog. Sure he can comeback and say it was a 150 pound pitbull foaming at the mouth but it's too late for that

 Deerslayer, all I did on my first post was simply quote a post that Btq96r made about the police officer that shot the woman in Gallatin that was charging at him with an axe. I did change the word "officer" to "you". Please feel free to search it.

Edited September 21, 2016 by toby1304
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[peejman]

12 hours ago, dawgdoc said:

I had a boxer charge me and my dog at full speed as we walked down the road.  Besides a gun and knife, I also had an ultrasonic pet deterrent device.  I shot the sound gun at that dog--he yelped and ran back the way he came.  My dog also cowed, but it was better than getting in a fight.  The dog also remembered us on subsequent walks and stayed on his deck.

One thing I worry about if you had to shoot a dog is the pavement.  Can't bullets ricochet off concrete or asphalt and go in weird directions?  I recall a LEO who tried to shoot a woman's dog (who wasn't actually aggressive anyway), missed, and the bullet hit the woman in the leg.  I think I would have a hard time shooting down at a running dog and hitting it.  I would feel much more comfortable if it was on a lawn or dirt.

Yes, bullets will definitely ricochet off asphalt. Skipping bullets to get BG's hiding behind vehicles is taught. 

[A.J. Holst]

Legalities aside, identified as NOT an immediate threat / finger never touched the trigger/  muzzle safely oriented...

I knew I liked you! 

 

[btq96r]

Thanks for the replies and thoughts everyone.  Always good to get different opinions on and review actions like this, especially with folks who may have similar experiences to compare and contrast with.

 

10 hours ago, toby1304 said:

I just think it's funny when someone gets on here and critiques and arm chair quarterbacks most every police shooting that is discussed on here then is so quick to draw his gun. As far as we know he was daydreaming and startled by a lap dog. He never mentioned the size or breed of the dog. Sure he can comeback and say it was a 150 pound pitbull foaming at the mouth but it's too late for that

Yeah, I figured this was coming sometime giving my postings...is what it is.  And I get the satirical comments you made in your first post now.  If I had felt the need to shoot...then I would expect anyone, up to an including a jury, to judge my actions.  My posting was focused on the draw and conclusion, because that's all that took place.  That said, I don't think I've been critical of officers drawing their weapon as a precautionary measure.  As you seem familiar with my postings, you can check me on that.  For me, engaging the sidearm is when the trigger gets pulled.  That's something that needs to come under scrutiny each and every time, LEO or non-LEO.

I wasn't daydreaming, but given the how fast the dog came out from behind cover and closed the distance, startled might be the right word that applies.  My philosophy on dogs is that unless I know the dog and the owner, I'm wary of it.  As to the dog...my limited experience is with the rescue mutt my family had growing up, and I never learned breeds to anywhere near the level of recognition on sight, so no idea what this one was.  I recall it had a thicker body, and I'd say it was probably came up past my knee as far as height goes, though I'm estimating that part as it never got right up next to me.  Still, I was more interested in its actions after it appeared than its size.  Like I said, once I saw the actions of a non-violent dog, I started to relax a wee bit, and things wound down rapidly enough.

Anyway...glad I can be entertaining for you if nothing else.

[Murgatroy]

I am just glad you didn't hurt the Chihuahua. 

 

Honestly I don't think you did anything wrong.

[toby1304]

Btq96r, fair enough.

[Wingshooter]

I was scouting for deer a couple years ago when a big Shepherd mix, a hound dog and a scruffy mutt came busting through the woods. The Shepherd type came right up to me in a direct line. I extended a hand, he smelled it and moved on. I guess I stunk  or maybe he saw the .44 mag in my other hand  The hound was doing what hounds do with his nose to the ground and the mutt seemed oblivious. The shepherd and his actions made me a little nervous at first, but dogs don't scare me that much overall.

I was chased by a mad holstein bull once in an open pasture. That freaked me out. Llamas scare me too.

 

 

[vbob]

everything good but i second the calling locals (police) to let them know what happened just in case the owner or neighbor decided to "show the dog hating gun nut what fur"

[deerslayer]

14 hours ago, toby1304 said:

Deerslayer , you are absolutely correct. I just think it's funny when someone gets on here and critiques and arm chair quarterbacks most every police shooting that is discussed on here then is so quick to draw his gun. As far as we know he was daydreaming and startled by a lap dog. He never mentioned the size or breed of the dog. Sure he can comeback and say it was a 150 pound pitbull foaming at the mouth but it's too late for that

 Deerslayer, all I did on my first post was simply quote a post that Btq96r made about the police officer that shot the woman in Gallatin that was charging at him with an axe. I did change the word "officer" to "you". Please feel free to search it.

 

gotcha. 

[DaveTN]

I’m a dog lover and the person in the wrong here is the dog owner. A dog should not be able to run up on anyone on public property. The owner put you and the dog in danger.

The only thing I would have done differently is that if I have to draw my weapon with people around; the cops are getting called and I’m not leaving until they show up. Having been a cop I can tell you that you don’t want someone calling the law on you and the responding Officers only getting one side of the story. You could end up cuffed and stuffed, charged with aggravated assault. 

[peejman]

1 hour ago, DaveTN said:

I’m a dog lover and the person in the wrong here is the dog owner. A dog should not be able to run up on anyone on public property. The owner put you and the dog in danger.

The only thing I would have done differently is that if I have to draw my weapon with people around; the cops are getting called and I’m not leaving until they show up. Having been a cop I can tell you that you don’t want someone calling the law on you and the responding Officers only getting one side of the story. You could end up cuffed and stuffed, charged with aggravated assault. 

Indeed.  If there's any thought at all of calling the cops, be the one who calls.  Good guys call and report bad guys. Right or wrong, that's the default. 

[ttocswob]

Had a similar experience with the neighbor's Rottweiler a few year's ago. Came out rather aggressively. Yes I drew on the dog. Turned out to be all bark, no bite; stopped at the edge of the street. No (human) witness, no nothing to report.

I can usually read dogs fairly well. As in your experience OP, no time to determine intent, just react.

They still have the dog, now too old and arthritic to chase me or anything else. They also have a younger dog, Lab mix, usually barks, but sometimes comes out aggressively - even to the point of nipping at my heels - when the old Rotty is there in the front yard to back him up (or so he thinks!)