September 11th.......never forget

[Wingshooter]

11 hours ago, Chucktshoes said:

 

 

Wow.

 

I guess you think they've really been milking that whole fourth of July thing, too. Do you still shed a tear for the redcoats?

 

 

 

Edited September 12, 2016 by Wingshooter

[NextExit]

Since I was living in upstate NY at the time, I still have the newspapers from the days after:

[McGarrett]

10 hours ago, Chucktshoes said:

But are we remembering the fallen, or are we remembering that "some filthy towelheads did that to us" so that we can also remember we're supposed to hate them?

We were remembering the fallen until you showed your butt. I'm not sure what you're doing ChuckT, but it is very disrespectful and has no place in this thread.

[crossfire]

7 hours ago, McGarrett said:

We were remembering the fallen until you showed your butt. I'm not sure what you're doing ChuckT, but it is very disrespectful and has no place in this thread.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and my opinion of ChuckT , on a scale of 1 to 10 has just reached "0".

[TGO David]

You know, I get the idea of protesting the liberties that have been encroached on and freedoms that have been violated by knee-jerk reactions as a result of 9/11 but what @Chucktshoes needs to remember is that none of us here [likely] enacted any of those new laws or asked for them in the first place.  This thread was obviously intended to remember those whose lives were lost on 9/11/01 and it is still valid for that.

Let's not sink the thread just because one or two people saw podiums instead of coffins.

 

 

[NoBanStan]

9 hours ago, NextExit said:

Weird, trying to quote your photo completed hosed my ability to respond in this thread next. Darn terrorists have extended to the forum!

Well, I can edit my post but I can't actually change the text above. Strange.

Anyway....what I wanted to say... "9/11 feels like just yesterday but looking at that paper makes it feel like a relic of some great war. It's hard to fathom that one day our HD and 4k resolution will look terrible to someone else."

Edited September 12, 2016 by NoBanStan

[crossfire]

36 minutes ago, TGO David said:

You know, I get the idea of protesting the liberties that have been encroached on and freedoms that have been violated by knee-jerk reactions as a result of 9/11 but what @Chucktshoes needs to remember is that none of us here [likely] enacted any of those new laws or asked for them in the first place.  This thread was obviously intended to remember those whose lives were lost on 9/11/01 and it is still valid for that.

Let's not sink the thread just because one or two people saw podiums instead of coffins.

 

 

The thread was sunk when that meme was posted.

[TNWNGR]

9/11 was a tragic day for our country with thousands of lives lost and many more lives forever affected, it also led to a fifteen year war against terror which shows no immediate ending. As someone else has already mentioned there are many other days for expressing your animosity for our country but 9/11 should not be one of them.

It speaks poorly of those here who used this as a soapbox to show their antagonism and contempt for other viewers feelings under the guise of free speech. If you've got something negative to say then just say you disagree and keep on moving. Several of you have amazed me in that your still here.

[56FordGuy]

It speaks poorly of those here who used this as a soapbox to show their antagonism and contempt for other viewers feelings under the guise of free speech. If you've got something negative to say then just say you disagree and keep on moving. Several of you have amazed me in that your still here.

While people are rightly focused on remembering the foreign terrorists that attacked the US on 9-11, a lot of folks are all too willing if not downright eager to forget the domestic terrorists that did the same. If the day that started one of, if not the greatest assaults on personal freedom in America is not an acceptable time to remember it, what day is?

[btq96r]

33 minutes ago, TNWNGR said:

9/11 was a tragic day for our country with thousands of lives lost and many more lives forever affected, it also led to a fifteen year war against terror which shows no immediate ending. As someone else has already mentioned there are many other days for expressing your animosity for our country but 9/11 should not be one of them.

It speaks poorly of those here who used this as a soapbox to show their antagonism and contempt for other viewers feelings under the guise of free speech. If you've got something negative to say then just say you disagree and keep on moving. Several of you have amazed me in that your still here.

I don't see the difference in opinion as "animosity for our country."  One can love their country and still seek to disagree with the policies that it's pursuing, that's a tenet of democracy.  If Sept. 11th is supposed to be a day to show the terrorists that they won't destroy our way of life, we can't be afraid about where democracy takes us in the course of a debate.

As to your 2nd paragraph...sorry (not sorry) if we violated your safe space.  But after moments of silence, we needs moments of honesty about what that day cost us.  As far as I'm concerned, a part of our freedoms became casualties alongside the victims and the first responders from that day.  Speaking out to those facts doesn't mean I don't mourn the lives lost along with the families and friends that were forever changed any less.

[TNWNGR]

27 minutes ago, 56FordGuy said:

 

While people are rightly focused on remembering the foreign terrorists that attacked the US on 9-11, a lot of folks are all too willing if not downright eager to forget the domestic terrorists that did the same. If the day that started one of, if not the greatest assaults on personal freedom in America is not an acceptable time to remember it, what day is?

 

 

 

19 minutes ago, btq96r said:

I don't see the difference in opinion as "animosity for our country."  One can love their country and still seek to disagree with the policies that it's pursuing, that's a tenet of democracy.  If Sept. 11th is supposed to be a day to show the terrorists that they won't destroy our way of life, we can't be afraid about where democracy takes us in the course of a debate.

As to your 2nd paragraph...sorry (not sorry) if we violated your safe space.  But after moments of silence, we needs moments of honesty about what that day cost us.  As far as I'm concerned, a part of our freedoms became casualties alongside the victims and the first responders from that day.  Speaking out to those facts doesn't mean I don't mourn the lives lost along with the families and friends that were forever changed any less.

Your opinions are pure and simply that. Both of you have a tendency to have outspoken opinions you expound on, I frequently disagree but also frequently make a point not to play along with your games. Sorry btq96r I don't have any safe spaces, I spent 30 years being spit on, assaulted, threatened and viewing the worst in people. So I'm a bit jaded, but I made a point not to bait people or turn my back on people inciting arguments. I have all kinds of negative opinions on subsequent actions of 9/11 and argued same in training. But I also don't feel the need to post memes or public criticism in a Memorial thread. 

[Omega]

45 minutes ago, 56FordGuy said:

 

While people are rightly focused on remembering the foreign terrorists that attacked the US on 9-11, a lot of folks are all too willing if not downright eager to forget the domestic terrorists that did the same. If the day that started one of, if not the greatest assaults on personal freedom in America is not an acceptable time to remember it, what day is?

 

 

You seem to think it's about the attackers.  It's not, it's about those we lost that day, it's about the 1st responders, it's about our soldiers.  I remember all the domestic POS terrorists, but besides being vigilant I don't waste a second thinking about them, or any of the enemy combatants for that matter.  I choose to see my country as the bastion of freedom, and choose to love it warts and all.  While I am not stupid to think what we have done has all been perfect, or even the right thing; I still support it.  At this point I could care less what other's opinions happen to be on certain issues, such as this and  Kaepernick (a POS if you want MHO), we are not going to change our differing opinions, so I'm done wasting bandwidth on it.

[56FordGuy]

You seem to think it's about the attackers.  It's not, it's about those we lost that day, it's about the 1st responders, it's about our soldiers.  

And it's about our freedom, the very thing so many men and women have fought and died for. How can we honor them and honor their sacrifice if we make no mention of how what they sacrificed for has been lost?

[Hozzie]

19 minutes ago, 56FordGuy said:

 

 

And it's about our freedom, the very thing so many men and women have fought and died for. How can we honor them and honor their sacrifice if we make no mention of how what they sacrificed for has been lost?

 

 

Just what have you lost?  In seriousness, what is something tangible have you lost.  I would like real examples.  We (me included) like to bitch and moan about what we have "lost".  People talk about losing privacy, or this, or that.  Do you have a single example of something tangible you have lost since 9/11?  

I don't consider going through security at an airport a "loss".  I go through it as much or more than 99% of the people on here and I don't consider it a "loss of my freedom".  I don't even give a rats ass about them knowing who I called.  What do I care?  I have nothing to hide.  I am not saying it makes it right, but for the average American, I just don't see what we have lost because of 9/11.  Yes, soldiers have died and families have lost members, but that is not what I am referring to.  I am referring to personal freedoms that we have supposedly lost.

So just what have you lost?

Edited September 12, 2016 by Hozzie

[btq96r]

32 minutes ago, Hozzie said:

Just what have you lost?  In seriousness, what is something tangible have you lost.  I would like real examples.

While not presuming to speak for 56Ford, how about all the money we are spending (or borrowing) to pay for the surveillance state?  The NSA budget may be classified, but I think we can assume it isn't cheap.

As to some of the non-tangibles...which are also important:

http://www.nyclu.org/pdfs/eroding_liberty.pdf

[Scorpion Equalizer]

18 hours ago, 300winmag said:

America and the rest of Western civilization does not fight to win anymore.  Unfortunately, I think that is why we have a lot of problems with these terrorists and terrorist countries today.

Exactly what Trump has been saying for over a year.

[Hozzie]

While not presuming to speak for 56Ford, how about all the money we are spending (or borrowing) to pay for the surveillance state?  The NSA budget may be classified, but I think we can assume it isn't cheap.

As to some of the non-tangibles...which are also important:

http://www.nyclu.org/pdfs/eroding_liberty.pdf

I ask again, what freedoms have YOU lost? What can you not do now that you could before? What burden do you have now you didn't have before?

[btq96r]

Just now, Hozzie said:

I ask again, what freedoms have YOU lost?

A freedom taken from another American is a loss to me all the same.  This is one of those areas where the individual centric train of thought will mean it only matters when it's too late.

[56FordGuy]

If you're a fan of the TSA security theater that's fine, but I'm not. I don't like to fly, but I've lost the option now because I won't volunteer to play their games.

Have you tried to get a CDL hazmat endorsement? Post 9-11, it's become a much more involved, expensive process. How about an agricultural pesticide license? I'm working on that now, six weeks into what used to be a two day process.

Those are real things that have affected me directly. We also have the NSA and Homeland Security spying on US citizens without warrants and suing for access to locked devices because the government thinks they have the right to every portion of our lives.

That's just off the top of my head, could probably find more with a bit of thought.

[Hozzie]

A freedom taken from another American is a loss to me all the same.  This is one of those areas where the individual centric train of thought will mean it only matters when it's too late.

I take that as a cop out answer. I asked about you. It's too easy to answer 1 for all. I figured if anyone may give an answer I could someday go for it maybe you, but I am not surprised either as I don't think any of us can point to any tangible impact on yourself.

[Scorpion Equalizer]

11 minutes ago, btq96r said:

 how about all the money we are spending (or borrowing) to pay for the FREE STUFF as bribes for Democratic votes.

Fixed that for you.

 

 

 

[btq96r]

6 minutes ago, Hozzie said:

I take that as a cop out answer. I asked about you. It's too easy to answer 1 for all. I figured if anyone may give an answer I could someday go for it maybe you, but I am not surprised either as I don't think any of us can point to any tangible impact on yourself.

It's not a cop out answer.  You could ask that question to someone who has lost their freedom through enforcement of those mechanisms and have your answer.  You want a specific example, I'm trying to say the mechanisms exist now that weren't in place before 9/11, and their mere existence are a loss of freedom and a threat to my, your, and everyone's individual liberty.

Edited September 12, 2016 by btq96r

[56FordGuy]

I take that as a cop out answer. I asked about you. It's too easy to answer 1 for all. I figured if anyone may give an answer I could someday go for it maybe you, but I am not surprised either as I don't think any of us can point to any tangible impact on yourself.

I listed three. Give me some time and I don't doubt I can think of more.

[Hozzie]

38 minutes ago, 56FordGuy said:

1: If you're a fan of the TSA security theater that's fine, but I'm not. I don't like to fly, but I've lost the option now because I won't volunteer to play their games.

2: Have you tried to get a CDL hazmat endorsement? Post 9-11, it's become a much more involved, expensive process. How about an agricultural pesticide license? I'm working on that now, six weeks into what used to be a two day process.

Those are real things that have affected me directly. 3: We also have the NSA and Homeland Security spying on US citizens without warrants and suing for access to locked devices because the government thinks they have the right to every portion of our lives.

That's just off the top of my head, could probably find more with a bit of thought.

I will take these one at a time:

1: I can agree it is Security Theater, but that security theater existed well before 9/11.  You can still get on a plane and you can still fly anywhere you want.  Because you don't want to do it doesn't mean you have lost a freedom.  We can agree that the formation of the TSA was a waste of money, no problem there, but I don't believe you or anyone else lost any freedoms because of it.  Is it more inconvenient, yes.  Loss of freedom, no.

2: I haven't tried to get a CDL, but my dad had one.  Again, just because it takes more time to get one, you didn't lose a freedom.  I don't like the fact that they can essentially charge whatever they want, but I also understand that it is now probably the easiest way for a terrorist to obtain and deliver a device of mass destruction on US soil.   It certainly isn't perfect, but nothing ever will be.  Again, if you want to get a CDL and license to deliver pesticides, you still can.

3: I also agree in theory on this, but I also don't give a crap if they want to know what numbers I call.  In the example of suing for access to a locked device, they had a warrant.  That is ok.  I don't agree they should be able to force a company to break their own security however,  but it is perfectly ok with me if they want to hire someone to break into a phone of a known terrorist.  I don't even give a crap if they have my text messages, I don't think they are worried about your average person.  It could certainly be used for nefarious purposes I suppose, but this just doesn't get me up in arms.  

I think we lost a lot of liberties well before 9/11.  I have much bigger issues with the rate of people going on disability and the fraud placed on our Social Security system, both of which have nothing to do with 911.  Its way to easy to just say "I have lost my freedoms" and complain about every single thing the government does without really thinking about possible ramifications.  Hell, remove all laws so we have complete freedom.  I don't think the other side of the coin looks any better.  For sure, the majority of people are not going to allow for that.  

In a short answer, inconvenience does not equal loss of freedom.  In most of these cases, we are talking about inconvenience, not a loss of liberty.

Edited September 12, 2016 by Hozzie

[300winmag]

There is a big difference between flying pre and post 9/11.  Pre 9/11 you just walked through a regular metal detector and could carry ordinary tools like small pocket knives in carry on.  You didn't have to go through the silly taking off your shoes, belt, etc silliness to go through security.  Heck up until the 70's you just walked on the plane.  Now people are being patted down like criminals or run through body scanners to get on a plane because of 9/11.  US citizens were only searched that hard before 9/11 when you went through customs, not traveling within the country.  I would say that freedom from unreasonable search is a big freedom to lose when traveling within the US.

The US military should have been allowed to fight to win before US citizens' freedoms were reduced within our country.

Edited September 12, 2016 by 300winmag