Firearm Club?

[walthermitty]

I wish there were a couple of Firearms Training Clubs where a group could practice on a monthly basis.  The training opportunities I see on the forum are great, but really expensive (for me.)  They are also intermittent. 

It would be great if gun shops, with the space, would sponsor this type of club.  I envision a membership system that would be limited to a reasonable number of permit holders. It could be an add on to an annual membership.  Meetings would be held at the sponsoring gun shop.  One employee would ensure that all weapons are empty, and that no ammo is in the practice area; it could even be held in the range, so all drawn guns would be pointed downrange.  Similar to martial arts, members would go through structured exercises like drawing/re-holstering, etc.  The club or shop may have visiting experts.  Some of the guys that put on 1-3 day seminars could provide instruction and build a patronage for the expanded version.  Special presentations, maintenance workshops or product demonstrations could maintain interest.

A gun shop could build a ready audience for new products and promotions, and get lots of social media endorsements.  There are two primary obstacles that I could see, which I think have solutions.  Insurance carriers may balk at having this kind of training, but if the shop already has a range, the cost couldn't be much more .... especially if it can document the safety precautions (no ammo, supervised and structured, participants are CP holders and annual members.)  Perhaps the biggest obstacle would be getting people that would stick with it.  But, if club members are also annual range subscribers, meetings should have sufficient participants over the long haul.  The visiting experts, inside specials, etc. would also help maintain interest.  Plus, a group of 30 members should facilitate a minimum viable class of 7 to 10 members at each meeting.

What do you guys think?  Doable?  Will you ask your gun shop to sponsor one?

[DaveTN]

16 minutes ago, walthermitty said:

 

What do you guys think?  Doable?  

Cost. “Add on to an annual membership” will stop it right there. If you can’t afford training classes you probably can’t afford a yearly membership and an “Add On” at an indoor range. You are talking hundreds of dollars (not counting all the ammo).

I wish we could have local groups that meet on someone’s property to shoot. But I realize most wouldn’t take on that kind of liability.

I have dreams of building a world class range and gun shop that would be affordable to all. Unfortunately, short of winning the lottery, that’s all it will probably be.

I went to Illinois for the holiday weekend. We had a group of about 10 friends and family that went shooting on a private farm. Shotguns, handgun, rifles, we shot everything…good day. Then we put everything up and went to the bar. Great time was had by all.

[nightrunner]

Without ammo isn't that basically dry fire and drawing techniques you can practice at home? I'd be down if there was a place you could shoot and move similar to how the various trainers are able to shoot. But at this time competition is as close as you can get unless you own land. And then you have to follow their sometimes stupid to your application rules.

 

Im with Dave, I'm definitely not paying someone to show me how to draw and reholster. If you think you are lacking in that area, watch some YouTube videos the practice at home with snap caps.

[GlockSpock]

Maybe just purchase some training videos or something like that?


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[DaveTN]

1 hour ago, CZ9MM said:

Maybe just purchase some training videos or something like that?

I think that’s what he is trying to do. With “something like that” being getting a group of shooters together and sharing experience.

Training requires live fire. Anything else is merely supplemental to that. There are plenty of folks on this forum and at the ranges that have a lot to offer and don’t have to get paid to offer it.

Finding somewhere to have the meetings will be the challenge.

To the OP… We have had impromptu meetings at Terry Walden’s range in Manchester. $10 to shoot all day. Pistol range and 300 yard rifle range. It’s an unsupervised range so whatever the folks that are there want to do is fine.

I hear there is a good range at Woodbury where you might be able to get some folks together. I’ve never been to it though.

[Jamie Jackson]

I can appreciate conceptually what walthermitty is proposing.

I think Dave nailed the primary obstacle, and that is fear of litigation & liability.

Another obstacle is commitment of the group members. Although, from prior experiences, a person making a financial commitment is more likely to follow though than one not making the financial commitment. My experience has shown people value more what they pay for than what they "get for free". It's human nature I guess.

I am not disparaging gleaning knowledge from friends and associates that want to share their talents. By all means please take advantage of that and appreciate the gift that it is.

I was very fortunate some years back to be a member of a truly dedicated core training group that Gomez ran back in Baton Rouge. We met every Monday evening to train for a couple of years. (It was a 220 mile round trip for me and worth every minute of the time). But it wasn't until Paul started charging, a very nominal fee of $10.00, that we saw folks start taking ownership of their commitment and consistently show up for the classes...$10.00! Like I said, human nature is strange...we value what we value...

And speaking of value...Professional training, while the cost may seem like a lot of money for a set time frame, quality professional training is truly an invaluable commodity imho. That quality professional training imparts correct methodology and concepts for you to work and improve on your on. It merely opens the door for "learning". You still have to do the work. But can more readily, and correctly, insure you are doing the acts correctly. Our perceptions of what we do vs what we actually do aren't always in alignment... Video yourself working drills or dry fire and watch honestly. It can be humbling.

Coordinating members schedules can and will be a  challenge. But it's worth the effort. We have some very knowledgeable members here at TGO that have a lot to offer from their various backgrounds and experiences. If I was in the area I would make every effort I could to hook up with Dave and take advantage of his kind offer. That pretty darn awesome Dave!

Videos, CD, DVD's or whatever they call it nowadays can be very beneficial...but caveat emptor...some are quality, some are just marketing hype...View them together as a group with a critical and questing eye.

Ask: What are my goals? Does this material apply to me and the realistic scenarios that apply to my life and situations? Is the material reproducible under stress and under pressure? Be critical...beware...

 

Just one more thought on professional training. Once you've experienced quality professional training I think you'll realize just what a true value it is. Ammo is expense. Training time is valuable. Quality professional training will truly gain you the most bang for your buck.

I am not a trainer, but I am eternally a student. I humbly appreciate those that have shared their knowledge with me and will always try and pay that forward.

[walthermitty]

Just a thought.  Thanks for the replies.

[Jamie Jackson]

27 minutes ago, walthermitty said:

Just a thought.  Thanks for the replies.

Please don't be discouraged by the replies in any way.

What you want to accomplish is certainly within the realm of possibilities, if you are willing to put in the work. And put up with the intermittent frustrations.

It all depends on what you are willing to do.

Good luck with your decisions. 

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Just some random thoughts.....

Everyone wants to do something...until they actually have to DO something. That is just how it is in life no matter whether we are talking about shooting, or getting in better shape or cleaning out the garage. It is hard to get a group together to do any kind of "tactical " training on a regular basis. If you have a group that will meet for more than 3 or 4 times you have something special going and when it ends don't cry because it is over, but smile because it even happened in the first place. Seriously.... training groups tend to be short lived. People will tell you they are interested until they actually have to do something. The number of people actually willing to do the work is small.  

One reason that gun clubs don't already offer this type thing is because of liability. My local club (Chattanooga Rifle Club) will not allow you to draw a gun from a holster unless it is in a match. I then ask "how are we supposed to practice for the match here if we can't draw from the holster?" and the answer is "that is not our problem". The real reason is that ANY one with zero training can join and use the club facilities. We have guys who are occasional recreational shooters who shoot once or twice a year and we have guys who are highly accomplished shooters who have shot in IDPA World Championship matches...and every level in between.  So to keep the likelihood of accidental shootings to a minimum the range simply functions as a place to do recreational shooting , not realistic competitive or self defense shooting. They offer HCP classes through the club ,but again, the HCP class is NOT really training...it is the bare minimum legal and gun safety info the state feels you should know before they will approve you to carry a gun on your person in public.....kind of like comparing the drivers test to get your license to a tactical driving school....they are not at all the same thing. For that matter, Prag and I have talked about doing a Tac Med class in the Knoxville area , possible at ORSA, with NO LIVE FIRE, only airsoft interactive training for context in where and how people suffer traumatic injury in self defense situations and the training in wound care but so far they seem to be deathly afraid of liability.... even though I am an NRA certified instructor, heavily insured and have been teaching professionally since 1999....... And the same applies for many people with private property....many people just do not want to risk an accident on their property. 

 

Another reason that folks don't do this is because of too many responsibilities pulling them in other directions. Again, everyone wants to do it until life gets in the way. Nothing wrong with that, and we all have to make choices and take care of responsibilities,  but it makes keeping a training group going very difficult. A couple of  years ago I ran a local combatives group that sounds kind of similar to what the OP mentions that met ONE night a month and the cost was $20.....it went fine in the winter months , but once the weather got warmer and sun was out longer folks started getting pressure from their wives to spend those evenings with them. The training group pretty much faded away.....and these were guys serious enough to go to multiple gun classes, and come work on empty hand defensive skills and transitioning to weapons (all done dry with blue guns)  but they ended up not being able to set aside even ONE night a month once "outside forces" started competing for their time. 

 

The other thing is who is going to be "leading" the groups? Someone working for the club (or property owner?) will have to make the time to come out and actually run the sessions. That in and of itself might be an issue getting someone from the range or club  to commit to coming out and doing it regularly if they are not getting paid anything extra to do it (see that section about other priorities competing for time). And then who is actually running the sessions? Depending on their level of experience and training that might be good...or it might not.    Remember...practice does not make perfect...it makes permanent . Only perfect practice makes perfection permanent. MAybe the "range instructor"? OK. That might be good ....but ...you can get an NRA teaching certification pretty easily...it is essentially a "safety monitor" certification. I have had NRA certified instructors who thought they knew a lot (and they did compared to folks with no previous experience) come to our BASIC class and be almost overwhelmed by how much there was to know that they did not learn in their NRA classes. Again the NRA does not teach "Gunfighting" they teach gun safety. 

And then there is that pesky profit motive....the range would have to be making enough money to make the "nuisance" of having to have someone run the group or at least monitor the group worthwhile....and at that point it would probably start to get more expensive than people would want. Ranges are businesses and exist to make $$$ . We forget that a lot of times. So unless you find a range owner that wants to get the training and is willing to forego payment for knowledge you might have a hard time selling this to a range .....assuming they don't already think that because they have "been around guns their whole life" they don't need to learn anything else anyway....

And finally the location....are there even enough members of the particular club that would be interested in coming out and doing it? If you have a small club with small membership then you are looking at an exponentially small pool of participants because we pretty much have settled on the numbers of 10% of people get a permit , 1/10 of that number take another class after thier HCP class and 1/10th of that take a second.....it is truly a small pool you are fishing in at that point....

I wish you the best of luck. I just want you to know what you are up against. 

 

Edited September 12, 2016 by Cruel Hand Luke

[chances R]

On 9/11/2016 at 6:15 AM, prag said:

............And speaking of value...Professional training, while the cost may seem like a lot of money for a set time frame, quality professional training is truly an invaluable commodity imho. That quality professional training imparts correct methodology and concepts for you to work and improve on your on. It merely opens the door for "learning". You still have to do the work. But can more readily, and correctly, insure you are doing the acts correctly. Our perceptions of what we do vs what we actually do aren't always in alignment.....

Walther, your intentions are good, but without proper leadership as prag and Cruel Hand note, you may not get the results you envision.  Now You may be very knowledgeable, but most simply just don't know what they don't know.  The best way to get started in what you want is to probably join an active IDPA club and then join a small training group.  That way you will benefit from other students of the game.