Trust and New Regs

[Fourtyfive]

I've had a trust for 8 months, not added anything to it yet. What are the new regulations and do I have to comply if it's 8 months old ?

[Obiwan]

The age of your trust, or when it was formed, doesn't matter. You have to comply with the new regulations since they went into effect July 13 this year. The trust is like a person. The fact that you were formed quite some time ago, doesn't absolve you from the new regulations either.

The new regulations (41F) requires every member of your trust to submit a fingerprint card and pictures with your application. It also requires "notification" to your CLEO by sending them a copy of your application (no signature required). 

The good thing is that the fingerprint cards and pictures are valid for 2 years. So you can file several applications each year but only need fingerprints and pictures taken every 2 years. (as far as I understand it)

More info here:  http://www.nfafa.org/atf41p.cfm

 

[justincase]

I wonder if filling individual will speed the process up.. I believe you can also transfer it to trust later

[rmiddle]

1 hour ago, justincase said:

I wonder if filling individual will speed the process up.. I believe you can also transfer it to trust later

I doubt it.  And if you wanted to transfer to the trust later I am pretty certain it would cost you another tax stamp.

[ARO Matt]

I got a trust a few years ago because you could skip the fingerprint, photo, and CLEO authorization that an individual had to get.  Now that a trust member has to do prints and photos, and the CLEO requirement is only notification as opposed to a request, there's almost no reason to go the trust route.  If you transfer between you and your trust, or vice-versa, you're paying another $200 and waiting again.

[2.ooohhh]

32 minutes ago, ARO Matt said:

I got a trust a few years ago because you could skip the fingerprint, photo, and CLEO authorization that an individual had to get.  Now that a trust member has to do prints and photos, and the CLEO requirement is only notification as opposed to a request, there's almost no reason to go the trust route.  If you transfer between you and your trust, or vice-versa, you're paying another $200 and waiting again.

There are still many advantages to trusts, just being able to list multiple responsible people who can use the NFA items within the trust is worth the cost alone in many cases.

[JeffL]

I am the only trustee on my trust; however, I have my mom listed as successor. Will I need photo/fingerprints from her when filing a new form 4?

[monkeylizard]

<<nevermind>>

Edited December 9, 2016 by monkeylizard

[Obiwan]

24 minutes ago, JeffL said:

I am the only trustee on my trust; however, I have my mom listed as successor. Will I need photo/fingerprints from her when filing a new form 4?

Depends on how the trust is written, but generally not. Usually successors do not have ownership rights and access to the trust possessions until your death, so they are excluded from the photo/prints requirements. If your trust, for whatever reason, grants access today (like a co-trustee), then they would be included.

[Dolomite_supafly]

On 11/28/2016 at 7:26 PM, rmiddle said:

I doubt it.  And if you wanted to transfer to the trust later I am pretty certain it would cost you another tax stamp.

It will. 

Any transfer will cost $200 except those transfers to heirs. A trust cannot be an heir to an individual. 

[gomer pyle]

On 12/9/2016 at 11:32 AM, Obiwan said:

Depends on how the trust is written, but generally not. Usually successors do not have ownership rights and access to the trust possessions until your death, so they are excluded from the photo/prints requirements. If your trust, for whatever reason, grants access today (like a co-trustee), then they would be included.

If I understand you correctly: I believe I have my trust set up with my wife and son as heirs, so they would not have to submit finger prints and photos? My wife already doesn't care for firearms, I sure she will love having to go get that stuff done so I can purchase more. 

[monkeylizard]

If they're only listed as heirs, then you're correct. They do not have to submit prints/photos. However, if either has access to the items without your presence (ie wife and/or son knows the combo to your safe), then they have constructive possession and should be on your trust. That's the way I understand it.

 

TGO law dogs.... is that correct?

[monkeylizard]

Theoretical Question:

What's to stop a trustee from removing all others from the trust, buying a new item with only their prints/photo submitted, then changing the trust after the new item is received to include the old trustees again? That's obviously skirting around the intent of the regulation change, but is it illegal?

 

Edited December 11, 2016 by monkeylizard

[Obiwan]

As far as I know, you have to submit your whole trust paperwork, including additions and removals. If your submitted addendum shows co-trustees that got removed right before your filing, you may get a call from the ATF for further clarification. I'm no legal-eagle but omission of such addendum could be considered fraud. 

Remember, when filling out the form, you certify, under penalty of perjury, that the application is true, correct and complete. Omitting part of the trust could mean the application is not complete. You further certify, under penalties imposed by 18 U.S.C. § 924 and 26 U.S.C. § 5861, [...] that the statements and attached documents are true and correct (although that section doesn't expressly state it needs to be complete  ). (Both statements are on the form 4. I've not looked at form 1 or other legal documents). 

26 U.S.C. § 5861 includes "It shall be unlawful for any person to [...] (l) to make, or cause the making of, a false entry on any application, return, or record required by this chapter, knowing such entry to be false."

18 U.S.C. § 924 says: "Except as otherwise provided in this subsection, subsection (b), (c), (f), or (p) of this section, or in section 929, whoever - (A) knowingly makes any false statement or representation with respect to the information required by this chapter to be kept in the records of a person licensed under this chapter or in applying for any license or exemption or relief from disability under the provisions of this chapter; [...] shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than five years, or both."  Good news: Not more than 5 years! Bad news: Per violation, not concurrently servable, no probation. You do the math.

Also note that, if your co-trustees were not listed anymore at time of application, it's likely illegal for them to be in possession of your NFA items without your presence, or have the ability to access the items, as you listed earlier. So, you're not only putting yourself in jeopardy, but also your former co-trustees.

 

Now all that being said, per the verbiage in your trust document, you're free to add and remove co-trustees. However, removing co-trustees before application, and adding them back in later, will most certainly construed as some sort evasion. What exactly in legal terms you might have violated, I have no clue. All I can see is that if you don't submit all trust papers (including removal and addition documents), you'll leave yourself open to having submitted incomplete statements and documentation. If you do submit all forms, and it shows that you removed your co-trustees right before application, that might be perfectly fine at that time. But if a subsequent application, or a request of review of the current documentation by ATF/LEO, shows that they added back in right after, that might lead to legal trouble.

Think of co-trustee addition/removals as more pf a permanent/long-term thing. I would consider temporary additions/removals suspicious. What, or if, any law is violated probably doesn't matter, as it is likely just a demonstration of intent to omit them from an application.

 

 

PS: While reviewing a current form 4 document, I came across something I haven't seen before. Is Section 13, the "Necessity Statement", a new section?