IDPA vs IPSC

[et45]

I appreciate everyone's replies, but really, what makes IDPA so much more enjoyable/attractive/whatever than USPSA?

DaG

Relaxed atmosphere,cheaper buy in to play the game come to mind for me.Also most IDPA clubs are friendly to new shooters,one thing I noticed up at Oak Ridge shooting IPSC was that if you were an "out of towner" people never really warmed up to you.One pal of mine who shot up there since the club was over by Bull Run steam plant said the same thing.On the other hand I have shot regular club matches at North Tn in Dickson and they went out of their way to make you feel welcome,just saying. Edited December 30, 2008 by et45

[Guest DaG]

Thanks ET for the info. I'll pass that along. I hope that I have never acted in a way that has offended a new shooter cause God knows I hate to see the USPSA club go away. If it keeps up at the rate it's going, I'm afraid that's what will happen. I had always heard about the old guys shooting in a field somewhere the steam plant.

DaG

[bubbiesdad]

Maybe to get some better trigger time with your carry gun?

I'm planning on trying the IDPA this weekend for that reason. It should be a little more interesting than normal target practice.

[Guest Arko]

I'll be there too Bubbiesdad!

[bubbiesdad]

I'm gonna try and hit the plinking range tomorrow or Fri.

[Guest Arko]

I was thinking the same thing! Likely Friday though as I'm assuming it will be busier there today (Thursday) due to the holiday. Maybe we'll see you there. Really big guy with a blue Dakota quad cab. If not, see you on Saturday!

[Guest DaG]

Use your carry gun to shoot USPSA....just bring a couple of extra mags and more ammo.

DaG

[Guest Grout]

Relaxed atmosphere,cheaper buy in to play the game come to mind for me.Also most IDPA clubs are friendly to new shooters,one thing I noticed up at Oak Ridge shooting IPSC was that if you were an "out of towner" people never really warmed up to you.One pal of mine who shot up there since the club was over by Bull Run steam plant said the same thing.On the other hand I have shot regular club matches at North Tn in Dickson and they went out of their way to make you feel welcome,just saying.

Ping Pong Edited January 3, 2009 by Grout

[Guest Arcane]

IDPA is like a pistol match only STUPIDER. .........

.......... It is not real life, it is not training, it is not a place to practice your training. It is a game, score is kept, there is a winner. If you are not playing to win, why play?

Is "STUPIDER" even a word?

JE you are right, whether you are talking about IDPA or USPSA.

It is not real life, it is not training, it is not a place to practice your training. It is a game, score is kept, there is a winner. And it has rules. Everyone may not agree with them but they are the rules.

I shoot IDPA and USPSA and I take them for what they are. Both have things that I like and things that I don't like. But if I choose to participate then I accept those terms. One is not "better" than the other when you compare them as shooting sports. Only when you compare one set of rules with another set of rules is there an opinion of one being "better" than the other. And even then, only because the reviewer is biased toward one set of rules.

We are all brothers-in-arms and should do everything we can to get more people to participate in all shooting sports and quit this "that sport stinks 'cause I like this one better" crap.

USPSA 45095

IDPA 13770

[Guest Arcane]

DAG, back on thread. Based on conversations with new shooters, here are the most often stated reasons given for starting in IDPA. (Remember I am not promoting one sport over any other. Just relating what I have heard, as you asked.)

1. "IDPA is less expensive."

While this may be somewhat true in regard to round count and a couple of extra mags and mag pouches, I think this mostly stems from the time before Production and Single Stack divisions were created.

2. "USPSA stages are too complicated."

Both IDPA and USPSA can have complicated stages. It depends on what your defination of complicated is. For instance, USPSA stages can have a vast number of shoot and no-shoot targets that may be difficult to discern which targets have been engaged and which have not when required to shoot from various locations. Conversely, while most IDPA stages have less targets, they may have targets to be engaged in, for instance, tactical sequence (1-1-2-1-1, or 1-1-3-2-2).

3. "I can relate more to IDPA"

Most gun owners are not what I would call "shooters". They are collectors (and that includes people that own one gun and keep it in a drawer) or own a gun for self defense. When these marginal shooters decide to participate in a gun sport for the first time they seem to be, for the most part, more attracted to a "defensive" type sport. Another reason for this could be due to the fact that most all IDPA guns look like the guns the new shooter is familiar with while an Open gun looks like nothing they have ever owned and don't know where or how to go about getting one.

4. "USPSA is a "click" group."

I believe this comes from media coverage of major matches and/or attending local matches where most top IDPA shooters look like guys wearing cargo pants and photographers vests while most top USPSA shooters look like NASCAR drivers covered with sponser logo's. On a local level this may be due to the fact that there is a small core group that shoot together and have for many years and add to this that they are very good shooters. In reality this could be said about any amateur sport. Local IDPA matches are newer than USPSA and unless a conscious effort is made to avoid this the same may be said about IDPA.

5. "I like the IDPA scoring better because I can understand it."

Most people can score an IDPA stage in their head. It is still difficult for me to explain to a shooter how he could finish ahead of a shooter in their division yet when the overall scores are posted he is behind that shooter.

This from my own observation. I have shot hundreds of USPSA matches and can't remember ever shooting a match where some shooter, at some time, asked "Can I do this?" and the answer was, and I quote, "It dosen't say you can't, so I guess you can." I'll admit I have benefited from this myself but still don't like it. The prevailing attitude is "I'll game the hell out of a stage". When stages allow the shooter to "game the hell" out of it I can't help but wonder if the winning shooter had better gun handling skills than me or did he push the rules further than I was willing too, or allowed too, by the RO in my squad.

[Guest Grout]

This from my own observation. I have shot hundreds of USPSA matches and can't remember ever shooting a match where some shooter, at some time, asked "Can I do this?" and the answer was, and I quote, "It dosen't say you can't, so I guess you can." I'll admit I have benefited from this myself but still don't like it. The prevailing attitude is "I'll game the hell out of a stage". When stages allow the shooter to "game the hell" out of it I can't help but wonder if the winning shooter had better gun handling skills than me or did he push the rules further than I was willing too, or allowed too, by the RO in my squad.

That's because it is a "GAME". Success in sports/games is a result of superior skill and thinking.I have seen lots of football teams with supierior talent lose to better coached teams.Also I'm 99.9% sure I would "game the hell" out of a self defense situation and be thankful I came out ahead even though my attacker was a better gun handler.The .1% would be guilt that I did not follow the IDPA rulebook.

[Guest DaG]

Thanks for the reply Arcane. As to #1, you're right. Before those 2 divisions were created, it was an expensive sport to start in, but I think they were also created so the IDPA shooter could easily cross over with a couple of extra mags. #2 That's part of the freestyle aspect that makes the sport so enjoyable. Granted, when I shot open class and setup stages it was gonna be a long, 32 rd field course with long,tight shots,hardcover and no shoots. Back then I couldn't understand why guys shootn' IDPA singlestack didn't like the COF. It was a BITCH for them. Now, I would rather setup a course that is 22-23 rds. The reason being, Singlestack (8 & 10 rd) and Production and IDPA SSP shooters all have to make at least the same amount of reloads to complete the COF. Very seldom do I setup a long field course anymore. I would rather have a low rd ct stage with several different options on how to shoot it with a some movement. If you look at stages from SC,Area 6, GA State and others the trend is to have lower rd ct stages and smaller COF"s with more stages. I think this is in part to try to attract crossover IDPA shooters. #3 I would have to argue on that one. Shooting is shooting is shooting regardless of which sport you compete in. It seems to OK to have different divisions in IDPA and the new shooter is OK with that. But in USPSA, new IDPA shooters are made to feel they are competing against an open or limited gun. Why is this? Is it because most of the what I call hardcore IDPA shooters discourage a crossover shooter? Who knows.... #4 Click, guilty as charged.....I have shot with the same guys since 1999 and we are probably the loudest,most obnoxious group of 5.11, sponsor shirt wearin' *******s you will ever shoot with. But we enjoy it and it also makes us compete that much harder as we are continuosly learning from each other. I think that a new shooter or two should be mixed in from time to time. Case in point at ORSA yesterday. 18 new shooters all on one squad. We left the range @ 3:00 PM. Mix in a few of the new shooters on each squad and let htem learn from experienced shooters. I told Mike that we would break them in right and he said that's what he was afraid of. I have noticed in IDPA matches that alot of people really seem to be uptight and extremely serious. What's up with that? #5 You win on that one! That's why our tactical matches and Doc's Championship matches are scored IDPA. Now the gaming part.....if it's not in the written stage briefing and it's not in the rulebook...game it! That's your drive to win! Remember, we are playing a game and it has a scoresheet be it IDPA or USPSA so there has to be a winner. But then again, gaming is only part of it, shooting, gun handling skills, and economy of motion are what wins matches. So with all this being said, come on up to ORSA, try a USPSA match. I think you will be pleasantly suprised to find out that it's not as bad as you've been told. Gone are the days of the 150 rd club matches. They're more like a 100 and sometimes less but the stages will test all your gun handling skills. See you soon.......

DaG

[gsbell]

I shoot IDPA at several clubs and when I'm squaded up with the usual suspects there is a serious amount of goofing around and having fun. I'm as competitive as the next guy when I'm on the line though. I generally avoid shooting with people who aren't there to have fun and compete.

[Guest Arcane]

That's because it is a "GAME". Success in sports/games is a result of superior skill and thinking.I have seen lots of football teams with supierior talent lose to better coached teams.Also I'm 99.9% sure I would "game the hell" out of a self defense situation and be thankful I came out ahead even though my attacker was a better gun handler.The .1% would be guilt that I did not follow the IDPA rulebook.

Grout, I appreciate your response and I agree with most of what you are saying.

I agree with you in a real life situation, do whatever you have to do to survive but, while that is not a game it still has rules, they are called laws. Shooting sports are games and they have rules. A better coached football team still plays within the rules. I am all for the shooter thinking of a better way to shoot a stage. Sometimes "gaming" a stage goes too far in my opinion.

Here is an example of what I am talking about. There was a stage with three walls set end to end across a bay. The center wall had a port in the center, the other walls were solid. There were 15 shoot targets and 10 no-shoot targets down range. You could see some targets from the left, some from the right and some through the port. There was a rectangle on the up-range side of the walls slightly wider than the width of the walls marked in tape and designated area "A". The course description said, engage targets from area A as you see them, 2 shots each. Most shooters went to the left or right first, then the center and then to the other end. But one experienced shooter ran to the center wall, leaned on it slightly, enough to move the wall forward in it's stand, and proceded to engage the targets from the gap between the center wall and the other walls. He was careful not to alter the stage design by moving the placement of the walls but took advantage of the fact that you could touch the walls and by doing so opened a shooting lane that I feel was not the intent of the stage design.

From what I have seen beginner shooters will just shoot the stage according to the description, intermediate shooters will ask a million questions like "can I do this, can I do that, can I shoot from here?", while experienced shooters will "game the hell out of it" and defend their actions with "It doesn't say I can't". Not saing it's wrong or right, it is what it is.

I am just stating what I have seen. I am not saying anyone is wrong or that my opinion is right, it is just that, an opinion. I respect your opinion as well as everyone else on here. Thanks for keeping it civil.

Mike

[Guest Arcane]

DaG, this is Mike. We worked together at Cherokee. I shot USPSA at Oak Ridge and Hickory Creek for many years until you moved your matches to the same Saturday as my IDPA match in Cleveland. Being the MD I am pretty much committed to being there for the matches otherwise I would come Oak Ridge to shoot with you guys.

In my response I wasn't trying to win any point, just relating what I have been told in conversations with new IDPA shooters. As you noted, some points are valid while some are not. Most, I think, are due to misconceptions.

I am not aware of any IDPA shooters trying to discourage people from shooting USPSA but I would say that it probabily happens on both sides. I have, and still do, shoot USPSA matches with "hardcore" IDPA shooters and have not heard them complain about the rules nor the match. But I have heard shooters who usually shoot USPSA and have started shooting IDPA complaining about having to wear a cover garment, retain a mag, etc. and calling the match "stupid" even though they came on their own free will and paid to shoot the match.

The intent of this thread was to find out what makes IDPA so much more attractive to shooters in the E. TN area. I think you have most of the answers in your response to me. Currently IDPA is not changing in order to attract shooters from USPSA by creating Open divisions, allowing "competition only" equipment, etc. for example. However, USPSA is changing in order to attract IDPA shooters to USPSA by creating Production and Single Stack divisions, smaller CoF, lower round count, etc. So what does that tell you? I think, and this is just my opinion, that USPSA began to be preceived as an "Elitist" organization by promoting the glamorous Open shooters and the latest "hi-tech" equipment that caused the everyday grassroots level shooter to feel left out. These are the shooters that didn't have the latest STI or SVI double stack guns with 6 or 8 hi-cap mags and competition belt rigs that they needed, at that time, to be competative in Limited or Limited 10. They lost a lot of potential entry level shooters, now they are changing to try to attract them.

There are still some hold-over misconceptions that need to be addressed by the USPSA to educate potential new shooters. You asked why new IDPA shooters think that in USPSA they are competing against open or limited shooters. I think this is because when they look at the overall standings the top shooters are usually open or limited class shooters. IDPA is not meant to have overall match winners, USPSA is. Some local IDPA matches like to combine the scores due to the limited number of shooters in each division and classification but sanctioned matches do not. Shooters only compete against other shooters in their division and classification.

I don't identify myself as an IDPA shooter or an IPSC shooter or a 3-gun shooter until I step on the range. I don't see myself as an IDPA shooter shooting a USPSA match for instance. If I am shooting a USPSA match then I am a USPSA shooter, if I am shooting an IDPA match then I am an IDPA shooter. I encourage people to shoot in organized competition, period. I want them to shoot USPSA, I want them to shoot IDPA, I want them to shoot 3-gun and I want them to shoot in any other shooting sport. This is the only way that our shooting sports will survive.

Mike

[Guest BigJ45]

1. "IDPA is less expensive."

2. "USPSA stages are too complicated."

3. "I can relate more to IDPA"

4. "USPSA is a "click" group."

5. "I like the IDPA scoring better because I can understand it."

1. Not really. Even before production and SS divisions were created I made master in L-10 with the same out of the box Kimber that I shot IDPA with. I just bought some 10 rd mags. It was all I had and I wanted to shoot so I did, I still carry it everywhere I go. No reason a Glock with hi-caps can't be competitive in Limited.

2. USPSA stages are more forgiving. If you forget where to go or what order to engage targets in you can get a lot of penalties in a hurry in IDPA. In USPSA it doesn't matter as long as the targets are engaged. It is only more complicated for those who have to be told what to do.

3.This is a personal problem. I have been shooting these games for a long time and still have trouble relating to a bunch of guys in matching vests. Cowboys ain't the only ones playin' dress-up.

4. I have been shooting competition since I was 12. Anywhere you go the people who shoot together all the time seem clickish (probably no more a word than stupider but I don't care) to newcomers but after a while you will blend right in.

5. Hit factors are points per second. How hard is that to understand. Each shot is worth 5 pts and who ever gets the most points per second wins.

[deerslayer]

I have been shooting these games for a long time and still have trouble relating to a bunch of guys in matching vests. Cowboys ain't the only ones playin' dress-up.

They don't all wear vests, and USPSA guys also dress a little funny at times with their Bill Dance bass fishing shirts. Not sure if it's nationwide or what, but our local USPSA guys ban any camo at their matches. A gun range is the last place where I thought I would have to be politically correct.

Edited January 4, 2009 by deerslayer

[Guest Arcane]

BigJ45, Not trying to argue for or against any of those points, just stating the most common reasons that I hear from new shooters as to why they shoot IDPA. As I stated in my original post, some are somewhat valid and some are not.

[Guest BigJ45]

This from my own observation. I have shot hundreds of USPSA matches and can't remember ever shooting a match where some shooter, at some time, asked "Can I do this?" and the answer was, and I quote, "It dosen't say you can't, so I guess you can." I'll admit I have benefited from this myself but still don't like it. The prevailing attitude is "I'll game the hell out of a stage". When stages allow the shooter to "game the hell" out of it I can't help but wonder if the winning shooter had better gun handling skills than me or did he push the rules further than I was willing too, or allowed too, by the RO in my squad.

Mike, You know I will "game the hell" out of a stage when ever I get a chance. There is a difference between gaming and cheating. One of my biggest complaints with IDPA is the rules are to open to judgement calls. Fault lines are either across or not, cover rules are the SO's judgement. In a IDPA walk through if you ask a question that starts with "Can I" most of the time the answer is "No" if the question starts with "Do I have to" more than likely it will be "Yes" I like "It doesn't say you can't" a lot better. Pushing the rules is playing the game. If you want to play a game that is a pure shooting test that can't be gamed shoot steel challenge or NRA action pistol. See you on the range, Jason

[Guest BigJ45]

BigJ45, Not trying to argue for or against any of those points, just stating the most common reasons that I hear from new shooters as to why they shoot IDPA. As I stated in my original post, some are somewhat valid and some are not.

I'm not arguing, I'm just a big, ugly, loud, opiniated redneck that likes to be heard. I want people to shoot anything they want to, as long as they shoot something. But some people talk bad about IPSC without ever trying it. They believe what someone else who has never shot it told them.

Edited January 4, 2009 by BigJ45

[Guest Grout]

dupe

Edited January 5, 2009 by Grout

[Guest Grout]

dupe

Edited January 5, 2009 by Grout

[Guest Grout]

Grout, I appreciate your response and I agree with most of what you are saying.

I agree with you in a real life situation, do whatever you have to do to survive but, while that is not a game it still has rules, they are called laws. Shooting sports are games and they have rules. A better coached football team still plays within the rules. with "It doesn't say I can't". Not saing it's wrong or right, it is what it is.

.

Mike

The .1% I was referring to was loading my mags up to full capacity.Sorry for the multiple posts but even this updated forum still does not have a delete option

[Guest Arcane]

I'm not arguing, I'm just a big, ugly, loud, opiniated redneck that likes to be heard. I want people to shoot anything they want to, as long as they shoot something. But some people talk bad about IPSC without ever trying it. They believe what someone else who has never shot it told them.

"... I'm just a big, ugly, loud, opiniated redneck that likes to be heard." Can't argue with you on that one big guy

Jason, I agree with you, I just want people to shoot. If people don't like a particular sport, they don't have to shoot it. But they shouldn't try to discourage other people from shooting it. Darren has a valid question and I don't want this to turn into a "My sport is better than your sport" contest like most of these threads do.

See you at the range.

Mike