R.K. Shows Policy Change: CCW Allowed

[Grayfox54]

Those of you who went to the Germantown gun show last weekend were probably just as surprised as I was to see the new signs at the door. Instead of the usual "No Loaded Guns Or Magazines" signs we're all used to, we saw this:

CONCEALED CARRY ALLOWED WITH VALID PERMIT. NO BRANDISHING OF FIREARMS.

Being the curious type, I e-mailed R.K Shows and asked why the change.  I got a response this morning. "Legally there was some laws that changed in TN enacting the change of policy for concealed carry permit holders"

So it seems that this policy change is the result of the new law which recently took effect here in Tennessee where business owners who post No Guns signs become liable for the safety of their customers. 

My first thought was "Ain't this cool! Now I don't have to bother with unloading and having my carry gun tied".  Who among us hasn't commented at one time or another on the irony of going to a gun show but not being trusted to carry our properly licensed and loaded EDC? But on reflection, now I'm not so sure if this is a good thing. 

We all know that there are a lot of people out there carrying guns with very little training and some have even less common sense. We also know that some folks are at the gun show to find things like holsters, magazines and accessories for their carry gun. Then there are those who just wanna show friends they happen to meet there what they're carrying. Now consider that gun shows can often become very crowded. People can be shoulder to shoulder and bumping into each other. I'm just not sure if I'm comfortable with a bunch of total strangers handling loaded guns under those conditions. 

What do you think?

[Omega]

I like it, I too wondered why they didn't allow CCW at these events.  As for people having some common sense, well that is the issue now isn't it?  But I would rather see these rules relaxed, the more this is common place the more we as a society will settle into a norm.  Hopefully some of those norms will be more safety when handling loaded weapons.  If I am looking for a holster for a certain weapon, I bring it along but not as my concealed carry.  That way I can handle it all day long and not worry about clearing it in a room full of people.

[Oh Shoot]

18 minutes ago, Grayfox54 said:

...

So it seems that this policy change is the result of the new law which recently took effect here in Tennessee where business owners who post No Guns signs become liable for the safety of their customers. 

Sigh, the disinformation continues. That did NOT happen, the bill was totally changed for passage. This is the total extent of the new statute.

"(a) A person, business, or other entity that owns, controls, or manages property and has the authority to prohibit weapons on that property by posting, pursuant to § 39-17-1359, shall be immune from civil liability with respect to any claim based on such person's, business's, or other entity's failure to adopt a policy that prohibits weapons on the property by posting pursuant to § 39-17-1359.
(b) Immunity under this subsection (a) does not apply to a person, business, or other entity whose conduct or failure to act is the result of gross negligence or willful or wanton misconduct.
SECTION 2. This act shall take effect July 1, 2016, the public welfare requiring it."

- OS

 

 

 

Edited July 25, 2016 by Oh Shoot

[Omega]

6 minutes ago, Oh Shoot said:

Sigh, the disinformation continues. That did NOT happen, the bill was totally changed for passage. This is the total extent of the new statute.

"(a) A person, business, or other entity that owns, controls, or manages property and has the authority to prohibit weapons on that property by posting, pursuant to § 39-17-1359, shall be immune from civil liability with respect to any claim based on such person's, business's, or other entity's failure to adopt a policy that prohibits weapons on the property by posting pursuant to § 39-17-1359.
(b) Immunity under this subsection (a) does not apply to a person, business, or other entity whose conduct or failure to act is the result of gross negligence or willful or wanton misconduct.
SECTION 2. This act shall take effect July 1, 2016, the public welfare requiring it."

- OS

 

 

 

Still, even though they still think the bill passed as was originally intended, someone may still see this bill, as passed, a good reason not to continue posting.  Unless I totally misunderstand the bill, a business is not liable if they do not post; correct?

[Oh Shoot]

Just now, Omega said:

Still, even though they still think the bill passed as was originally intended, someone may still see this bill, as passed, a good reason not to continue posting.  Unless I totally misunderstand the bill, a business is not liable if they do not post; correct?

Yep, that's it.

Just bugs me that after all the discussion here, so many folks still think it gives packers the right to sue places that DO post. To be fair though, that fallacy is spread far and wide around the web among gun sites, who all pounced on it without any verification at all.

- OS

[Omega]

Just now, Oh Shoot said:

Yep, that's it.

Just bugs me that after all the discussion here, so many folks still think it gives packers the right to sue places that DO post. To be fair though, that fallacy is spread far and wide around the web among gun sites, who all pounced on it without any verification at all.

- OS

Yea, I get it.  I hate the fact that they can even do that; a Bill should stand or fall on its own merits.  It should not be able to be changed that significantly (opposite meaning IMO) once it gets that far.  I also hate when Bills get Riders, whose only sole way to pass is by being added to a Bill that has a chance.  If it can't pass on its own, then maybe it shouldn't pass.

[Oh Shoot]

31 minutes ago, Omega said:

Yea, I get it.  I hate the fact that they can even do that; a Bill should stand or fall on its own merits.  It should not be able to be changed that significantly (opposite meaning IMO) once it gets that far.  I also hate when Bills get Riders, whose only sole way to pass is by being added to a Bill that has a chance.  If it can't pass on its own, then maybe it shouldn't pass.

Yep to all that.

But in reality the law as enacted will likely make x number of businesses to change policy, and OP was right that the law in question is the reason RK is doing it, even though he had the motive wrong.

AND, I seriously doubt that the original version would have stood judicial muster when challenged anyway, but this one probably will.

- OS

[chances R]

Not being familiar with the Germantown venue, my guess is referring to the 'parks' law ......maybe?  Just behind the times.  As with most, I have no problem with folks packin', my problem is that some insist on getting their loaded weapon out, inadvertently muzzling others while they show their gun off, try holsters, etc., etc. 

[Grayfox54]

Seeing as I don't speak leagalize worth a damn, now I completely confused. Can somebody please explain in plain English just what his new laws says? Exactly what's the property/business owner is liable for if they do or don't post the No Guns signs? 

If they post and something happens they are liable? 

If they don't post and something happens they aren't liable?

I get a headache just trying to figure this stuff out.  

[Oh Shoot]

11 minutes ago, chances R said:

Not being familiar with the Germantown venue, my guess is referring to the 'parks' law ......maybe?  ..

Doubt it. RK has always posted (non statutorily compliant) here for show held in non-park venue.

2 minutes ago, Grayfox54 said:

...

If they don't post and something happens they aren't liable?

In a nutshell, that.

- OS

[A.J. Holst]

Well, all those untrained folks are walking around already, is getting them all in one place more or less safe for me?

Worst case fear, the first gun gets drawn or discharged through idiocy, then like the wave in Neyland Stadium, more and more guns are drawn.

Add adrenalin, poor trigger and muzzle discipline with a large crowd = high rate of fail.

[Garufa]

I know some aren't going to like this but loaded guns at a gun show is a very, very bad idea.

It only takes one dolt to ruin the party.

[DaveTN]

What gets me is that the state doesn’t recognize the 2nd amendment as an individual right, but yet they think they can tell a business what they can/ can’t do are far as guns and liability goes to those that bought the privilege.

If you want to call it a right; it has to be a right

 

[300winmag]

Most of those gun shows are at city or county owned rec facilities, so if you have a handgun carry permit you are legal to carry.  I've never seen metal detectors at a gun show, so unless you are dumb and show the gun to someone, then no one knows.

[owejia]

To the original op question, What do you think about strangers packed together at gun shows conceal carrying, you pay your fees and take your chances, that is just part of living life, can't control what some one else will do. Just have to be aware of what's happening around you at all times.

[300winmag]

Carrying at a gun show is no different than anywhere else.    I don't know why pro gun people would want to be made breaking a law, such as the no gun sign law in Tennessee, for carrying at a gun show.

 

 

 

[jgradyc]

I would not want to go to a gun show that allowed everyone to carry in the show. It's one thing to be around people discreetly carrying. It's another when people are trying out holsters, showing their guns, and letting others (strangers) handle their loaded weapons when trying to sell them.  Some of those strangers have no firearms discipline. I'm not putting my life in their hands. 

It's a small concession to empty your firearm when entering and reload when exiting. 

Funny story, sort of: Someone asked me about my money clip folding knife... a SOG Access Card 2.0. I handed it to him and said, "Be careful. It's sharp." He promptly cut his thumb... I mean, in less than 5 seconds. I don't give my knife to anyone anymore. Imagine the same thing at a gun show... only with a gun instead of a money clip knife.

Edited July 28, 2016 by jgradyc

[300winmag]

If someone is not bright enough to keep his loaded handgun holstered at a gun show he might need to rethink carrying in public until he gets some solid training.  When at a gun show I keep my loaded carry gun concealed .   Guns that I'm trading are of course unloaded.

[JAB]

When I very, very first got my HCP and started carrying in public (and was still a little nervous about it/getting used to it) I went to one of the RK shows at Chilhowee.  I didn't realize until after I got in there that carry wasn't allowed.  I figured that if there were anywhere on the planet that would allow carry it would be a gunshow.  I explained this and apologized to one of the off-duty officers who was checking guns being carried in.  His response was, "You have a permit to carry?"  and when I answered in the affirmative, he said, "Well, since you told me I have to hang on to your loaded magazine until you leave.  From now on just keep it in your pocket and don't say anything."  Well, far be it from me to disobey the instructions of an officer!  Of course, I haven't been to one of those shows in, oh, at least three years, maybe more.  I got tired of paying out the admission fee to walk around a crowded building with a lot of rude people (a lot higher number of rude, pushy people than I would expect at a firearms related event - like being in a big room with a bunch of New Yorkers) and look at overpriced guns and ammo that was usually even more overpriced.

As for the policy change I, too, wonder if it was due to the 'parks' law.  Sure, they may have some shows that are in privately owned facilities but some of their shows are in facilities that would be covered by the 'parks' law so maybe they just decided to adopt a blanket 'carry allowed' policy.

And for those who don't want people carrying at gun shows I understand where you are coming from but honestly it kind of sounds like the same argument the antis made against allowing carry where alcohol is served, "I don't want some guy with a gun sitting next to me and my family when we are eating dinner at Ruby Tuesdays,  I don't know if he is safe and responsible with his firearm," sounds a whole lot like, "I don't want some guy with a loaded gun standing next to me and my family at the gun show.  I don't know if he is safe and responsible with his firearm."  See, it kind of is the same argument because they don't know that the guy next to them is a 'responsible' carrier any more than we know that the other guy at the gun show is 'responsible'.  So, are they right?  Either a person is responsible enough to be able to carry everywhere or that person isn't responsible enough to be allowed to carry anywhere.  Further, and I don't mean this to be confrontational it is just the fact of the matter, what you are really saying is that the requirements to get an HCP in Tennessee are not stringent enough and that not only should we not enact no-permit carry but we should actually make it much more difficult to get an HCP so that we can know for sure that the other guy - whether he is carrying at Ruby Tuesdays or at an RK show - is responsible enough to have that loaded weapon.

Edited July 29, 2016 by JAB

[Cherokee Slim]

I like the change.  Gun buster signs were one reason I quit going to shows here in Chattanooga.  That and over priced guns, ammo and Taiwanese jewelry. I actually got bored (don"t flame me) seeing 50 feet of black pistols that all looked the same.  I look for the jewel that stands out, usually at triple the price it should be. Or like this jewel of mine.

Cherokee Slim

[300winmag]

Yeah to me the same argument against carrying at gun shows is what is keeping us from getting these silly 'no gun' signs fine removed and school/college property carry.  You are either safe or not safe to carry in public.  Carrying at a grocery store is no different than a school or a gun show.  The handgun stays concealed and holstered and no one knows about it.

[Jeb48]

I also like the change in rules, always thought it was hypocritical but figured it was the rule of the place being used for the show. I agree on the over priced ammo and most of the guns, I have found a few bargains, sometimes you just have to make an offer. I disagree about the rude people, maybe I have been lucky but I find people at gun shows to be very polite and considerate. I have been to gun shows in other states and found the same thing true. Not all dealers fit the polite/considerate standard however.

[JAB]

On 7/29/2016 at 10:14 PM, Jeb48 said:

I also like the change in rules, always thought it was hypocritical but figured it was the rule of the place being used for the show. I agree on the over priced ammo and most of the guns, I have found a few bargains, sometimes you just have to make an offer. I disagree about the rude people, maybe I have been lucky but I find people at gun shows to be very polite and considerate. I have been to gun shows in other states and found the same thing true. Not all dealers fit the polite/considerate standard however.

Glad you have had good experiences.  My mom went with me to a couple of the Knoxville shows when she had a couple of guns in mind that she hoped to find 'deals' on and commented on the fact that every time she stopped to look at a gun some guy (not the same guy) would literally push her out of the way.  It isn't just because she is a woman, either.  I have had that happen to me several times and I am a guy who is just shy of six feet and over 250 pounds.  The last, couple of times that happened I had enough and pushed back.  That was about the point when I decided that it just wasn't worth the aggravation.

Come to think of it, I don't recall that sort of thing happening when they have the shows at Chilhowee Park in the Jacob's Building but it has been the norm every time I have been to one at the Expo Center.

Edited August 1, 2016 by JAB

[alingo2001]

Went to their show in Murfreesboro yesterday and they were still showing no concealed carry and asking if you had any weapons. What was in my pocket was none of their business 

[DaveTN]

19 minutes ago, alingo2001 said:

Went to their show in Murfreesboro yesterday and they were still showing no concealed carry and asking if you had any weapons. What was in my pocket was none of their business 

Was there a sign up?