Are you worth what you are paid?

[Guest GT_Rat]

I don't think the question is, "Are you worth what you are paid." Your job and its associated salary have nothing to do with what you are worth as a person. The question is are the skills and aptitudes you bring to the table worth what you are being paid? If your skill is to hold this wrench while it tightens a bolt to the specified torque and you get paid $25 bucks an hour to do it 50-100 times a shift, then you are getting paid a crap-load more than what the skill you bring to the table is worth.

[DaveTN]

I don't think the question is, "Are you worth what you are paid." Your job and its associated salary have nothing to do with what you are worth as a person. The question is are the skills and aptitudes you bring to the table worth what you are being paid? If your skill is to hold this wrench while it tightens a bolt to the specified torque and you get paid $25 bucks an hour to do it 50-100 times a shift, then you are getting paid a crap-load more than what the skill you bring to the table is worth.

I wasn’t trying to say that a guy putting on wheels is a skilled trade job.

But for example, we can get rid of all the high paid IT jobs by hiring people from India. They will work for a fraction of the wage that an IT guy here wants. Should we do that? I mean it lowers the cost of a product and after all that is more important right?

How about Doctors? Walked around the medical centers lately? Doctors from all over the world are willing to come here. Medical costs are through the roof. Shouldn’t we maybe look at outsourcing that and get rid of some of these doctors that spent all that money to go though medical school and specialized training? Heading for surgery and knowing you are getting cut on by the low bidder shouldn’t bother anyone.

[mdlave]

But for example, we can get rid of all the high paid IT jobs by hiring people from India.

If it is a job that someone with no formal education and English as a second language can do successfully from thousands of miles away, I'm not sure that the "high pay" was justified.

As for doctors, I'm not familiar with any risk of outsourcing there. I'd imagine the costs of transport to India for head surgery would cut into any possible savings in labor. That is one of those "outsourcing proof" jobs.

It basically comes down to the value of certain skills in the marketplace. However, I'm also a big fan of tariffs, reducing the incentive to bring in goods from foreign countries (a solution to the foreign car "problem"), and a similar effect can be had on labor through legislation.

[Guest GT_Rat]

You're illustrating my point. A doctor brings more to the table than being able to hold a wrench while it tightens a bolt. A doctor brings more to the table than being able to manhandle a dashboard assembly into a car and tighten some bolts. A doctor brings more to the table than being able to wait until a chassis is dropped down on to the engine assembly and hold the wrench while it tightens some bolts. Most of what the UAW negotiated the ridiculous wages for is unskilled labor. People that wait for the next assembly to come along and have them hold the wrench while it's bolted together.

Doctors bring a considerably larger skill set to the table regardless of where they come from and because of that they demand larger salaries regardless of where they come from. People will pay a lot of money to not die.

[DaveTN]

If it is a job that someone with no formal education and English as a second language can do successfully from thousands of miles away, I'm not sure that the "high pay" was justified.

Oh, I’m not talking about them doing it from there; I’m talking about bringing them here. I mean if it brings down product cost a few American workers losing their jobs is just the cost of good business… right?

Indian IT lobby wants more work visas for tech professionals

Agence France-Presse

First Posted 05:21pm (Mla time) 05/16/2007

Filed Under: Computing & Information Technology, Technology (general), Overseas Employment

BANGALORE, India--India's tech industry on Wednesday demanded more liberal US visa rules for software and computer professionals in response to calls by US lawmakers to limit their entry further.

The annual US visa limit of 65,000 for overseas professionals such as software engineers is harming trade in the information technology industry, India's National Association of Software and Service Companies said in an e-mailed statement.

The cap on the so-called H1B visas was reduced from 195,000 two years ago, noted NASSCOM, as the industry lobby group is known. This year, foreign employers snapped up all the visas on the first day of their issue.

"Constraining the supply when demand is high gives rise to problems for both US companies as well Indian IT companies," said NASSCOM.

"NASSCOM feels that the cap should be large enough to allow market forces to operate freely," it said.

The H1B visa is an employer-sponsored, non-immigrant, temporary work visa for skilled employees.

NASSCOM was reacting to an allegation by US federal lawmakers Charles Grassley and Richard Durbin this week that H1B visas were being misused by foreign employers to disadvantage skilled Americans.

The two senators have introduced legislation that would overhaul the US work visa program to ensure American workers are protected and crack down on employers who deprive locals of high-skill jobs.

"Supporters claim the goal of the H1B program is to help the American economy allowing companies to hire needed foreign workers," Durbin was quoted as saying in a statement.

"The reality is that too many H1B visas are being used to facilitate the the outsourcing of American jobs to other countries."

The two senators wrote to nine top Indian IT firms, including software makers Tata Consultancy, Infosys and Wipro, to account for their workforce and how they are using H1B visas, demanding a reply by May 29.

The nine companies account for 20,000 H1B visas.

Bangalore-based Infosys, India's second-largest software maker, is "examining the issue," said a spokeswoman for the company. Wipro, also based in Bangalore, is waiting to receive the letter, spokeswoman said.

As for doctors, I'm not familiar with any risk of outsourcing there. I'd imagine the costs of transport to India for head surgery would cut into any possible savings in labor. That is one of those "outsourcing proof" jobs.

Again… we are going to bring them here; they will work for less.

It basically comes down to the value of certain skills in the marketplace. However, I'm also a big fan of tariffs, reducing the incentive to bring in goods from foreign countries (a solution to the foreign car "problem"), and a similar effect can be had on labor through legislation.

Good grief. You want the government involved in protectionism?

So even though this problem is on the people; you want to lay it at the feet of the government and ask them to fix it?

[Guest gcrookston]

I believe legacy employees should be taken care of. They belonged to the Unions when it mattered. The Unions are now nothing more than parasites that will destroy employment opportunities for its membership. I don't believe a guy, like my son's father-in-law, is worth $95.00/hour to put electric switches in Colorado Pickup Trucks. And he is mad at GM for sucking up. Now he's only going to make $70.00/ and hour on half shifts... Sucks to be him? I don't think so.

PACCAR is doing a swell job with the Union here at their Nashville Plant. Demand is down and can be filled with the production of one plant.... Denton is filling all orders on the non-union line. The Nashville plant is closed until further notice. Good job the union did for their members on that call, wanting to renegotiate the contract for wages in excess of market and benefits in excess of market in a down turning economy. Good Job, there. Now your membership is unemployed.

450 workers out of work because in a free market economy it's all about supply and demand. Hard to justify a nut turner for $50 an hour that's unionized for one that's not unionized for $20 an hour, not to be to hard on the nut turner, 20% of his salary goes to UAW dues to get him unemployed.

My own company struggles with Unions. I see a guy on our assembly floor making $75.00 an hour pushing a broom and I want to puke. Why did I go to college?

Edited December 22, 2008 by gcrookston

[mdlave]

Good grief. You want the government involved in protectionism?

So even though this problem is on the people; you want to lay it at the feet of the government and ask them to fix it?

Do I think the government has some responsibility for policy that encourages keeping jobs on US soil? Sure.

I'm pretty sure that most of the workers at the Nissan plant in Smyrna are American. We aren't flying folks in to do those jobs quite yet. If Tennessee was a union state, I doubt that plant would be in existence.

In the current debacle we're discussing, trade unions are a much bigger contributor than outsourcing to other countries.

[TGO David]

The original poster, DaveTN, is for some reason obsessed with comparing apples to oranges. As gcrookston points out in his most recent post, it is easy to find examples of a person doing menial tasks at a pay rate that is not in keeping with the level of education or skill that he brings to the table. The fact that companies have been willing to pay an employee $75/hr because of tenure to push a broom on a Union factory floor is why so many companies are hurting now and why so many people are losing their jobs.

I've told my own employer for a few years now that while the annual pay and bonus increases were appreciated, they were not necessary nor were they appropriate considering that my workload had not increased any in the same amount of time. Rather, my workload has actually decreased as the company's business has decreased. Yet pay and bonuses kept going up.

In my 2006 annual review with our CEO, I questioned this practice and was told that this was just the way it had always been. Every year brought a $2,000 salary increase and a similar increase in bonus. I pushed the point and asked how the company could sustain this when our operating income was on a downward slide since 2002. The answer was that they hoped things would turn around and that the employees would riot if it ever changed.

Well, guess what. The employees are rioting now because they are laying people off. Those of us who do not actively interact with clients and directly generate revenue (i.e. cost center departments) are taking the hit first. Hardly a fair predicament given that the salespeople who aren't selling still get to keep their jobs, but life isn't about "fair".

But I digress. Back to the question at hand, are my skills worth what this company has paid me? YES. Was my pay worth the amount of work that I've had to do for the past year? Not really, but my job is analogous to having car insurance. It may seem like you're paying me a lot until you really need my skills. When you do, I'm worth every penny.

As for outsourcing IT to India, that trend is dying off. There are a lot of menial jobs in IT that can be outsourced to monkeys if they wanted to do it, but the problem is that you get what you pay for. If you pay a guy who barely speaks English and can hardly communicate well with your customers $0.50 an hour to answer a phone and work through a fip-chart to "troubleshoot" a problem, then you're going to get your money's worth.

Once Habib costs you a few hundred non-returning customers or a few thousand in lost income because of downtime, I'll be there to fix it for you. And it's going to cost you quite a bit, but even still not what I'm worth.

[Farman]

Great post Tung. If I had a business I'd have someone with your work ethics working for me.

As for outsourcing IT to India, that trend is dying off.

This is great news. When my wife has to deal with tech-support it takes at least two vodkas to get her calmed down.

[towerclimber37]

No freakin way I would do what you do. I get stressed cleaning out the gutters.

But I have to assume that you get paid for what you do after you get on those towers.

Because I could get guys to climb them for $5 an hour with no benefits and wouldn’t have to leave this area to do it.

But seriously… if all the $20-$25 an hour manufacturing jobs turn into $8-$10 an hour jobs; you think that won’t impact you?

Actually, you CAN get guys to climb those towers for 5 bucks an hour. then what would they do?

The only thing climbing a tower does is get me to work. if you don't know what you're doing when you get there, you can make one of many mistakes that could either fry you, microwave you, turn you into a really greasy lawn dart, or you could destroy a 50,000 dollar or MORE, install.

I can do anything they need done on a tower...survey's, microwave installs and pathing, cell phone installs including your "3g" stuff...UMTS (that's what we call it".

I can run 2 frequencies up the same line on the tower and separate them again at the bottom...and get a clean signal out of both.

I don't want to bore you with all the stuff...but I will tell you that they get MORE than their money's worth out of me...on top of that I never refuse to climb..I don't care how many barnacles are on a tower..I will never say "that can't be done".

I bring 22 years of knowledge to the table when I say that I'm worth every penny. your 5 dollar an hour workers couldn't do that on their best day 10 years from now.

as for the manufacturing jobs affecting me? nope.

we don't manufacture anything..we BUILD. there is a difference.

Edited December 23, 2008 by towerclimber37

[Guest mn32768]

Not in Tennessee you don’t. Tennessee is an employment at will state. You take a problem outside the company and you can be fired; they don’t even have to give a reason.

Not only can you be fired, you can be sued by your ex-employer. A guy I know used to work as an "at will" computer programmer for a small IT outfit. After he'd been employed for a couple of years and had become "irreplaceable", instead of getting a raise, his employer wanted him to sign a Non-Compete/Non-Disclosure Agreement. This agreement would have prevented him from working as a programmer for two years after he resigned or was let go for any reason. When he refused to sign the agreement and quit to take a better job, he was promptly sued by his ex-employer for "stealing trade secrets". It took him about $40,000 and his life savings to extricate himself from the harassment lawsuit. In the civil court system, a vindictive company can force a rank-and-file employee to bankruptcy with little fear of consequences.

[Angus]

Ok, I am a union employee, but not in the auto industry. We are paid the lowest dollar scale in the industry ( airline industry ). Am I paid what I am worth, absolutely!! Am I overpaid? Not at all. I have a college education, in Aviation Management actually, but seeing how things are done in his industry, I prefer not to be moved every 18 to 24 months. I dig my job, and I do it well. I take care of customer and coworkers, and I love it. The reason the union helps, is the simple fact that to be a member of management, you do not need a college education or any formal training. Therefore there are several folks that should never have been placed in management positions making vital decisions. Our union is a basic checks and balances system, and with a good manager most issues are resolved without the whole union meeting process.

To say unions are all bad is like saying all gun owners are crazed killers. The unions have helped make the Big Three what they are, but as has been said, those contracts were negotiated by the unions and management. It is definately a 2 way street.

[DavidD]

To the OP, Yes. However, I only get paid what my customers are willing to pay me. If the construction Indusry stays on the decline, then my salary will follow. As an example, My partner and I have always taken a Christmas Bonus, even if it was just a few thousand dollars. This year we are taking $0.

[1908_Cubbies]

Precisely.

Don’t get me wrong, the big 3 are not our friends in this and they are not victims of the union. Unions or no unions we can’t compete with foreign competition on a price basis unless to want the lifestyle of those countries.

Not even considering wages our companies here that want to manufacture a product have the cost of OSHA, EPA, Workman’s Comp, Unemployment Insurance, and many have Employee health insurance and 401K or retirement. Our foreign competitors don’t have those costs.

But what can be done about to without destroying our economy?

What do you consider "foreign competitors"? Nissan, Honda, Toyota and BMW all use parts made in the US and assembled in the US. They have the same OSHA, EPA, etc costs as the big 3... I think that the big 3 need a major restructuring (including salaries and benefits) to remain viable. They have locked themselves into a lot of STUPID contracts with the unions. Chrysler and GM have both announced that they will stop production for a month but there employees will still recieve 90% of their pay... WHY???? If I were running the company, I sure as heck wouldn't be paying people 90% of their salary to stay home. That is what the pay unemployement insurance for... Why not pay go ahead and pay the extra 10% and have a product to show for it?

[towerclimber37]

What do you consider "foreign competitors"? Nissan, Honda, Toyota and BMW all use parts made in the US and assembled in the US. They have the same OSHA, EPA, etc costs as the big 3... I think that the big 3 need a major restructuring (including salaries and benefits) to remain viable. They have locked themselves into a lot of STUPID contracts with the unions. Chrysler and GM have both announced that they will stop production for a month but there employees will still recieve 90% of their pay... WHY???? If I were running the company, I sure as heck wouldn't be paying people 90% of their salary to stay home. That is what the pay unemployement insurance for... Why not pay go ahead and pay the extra 10% and have a product to show for it?

ahahahahahahahahh great point cubbies!

and the telling point of why they're circling the crapper...