Are you worth what you are paid?

[DaveTN]

The threads about the auto industry and the union bashing made we wonder what some are thinking.

They blame the unions for the high wages of what they call “unskilled and uneducated†workers. I don’t know if they include the skilled trade workers that made all the parts that make up those products prior to being bolted together; but I would guess they do.

So what if we allow our manufacturing base to out sourced to other counties? Or what if we don’t, but we just do away with the pesky unions and get the wages reduced down to where these “unskilled and uneducated†workers need to be.

What will that do to your wages and your family’s lifestyle? Who here has a job that can’t be outsourced to another country, can’t be replaced with workers from other countries that will do your job for a fraction of the cost (like IT & Engineers), or will otherwise remain unaffected when all these wage cuts and job losses come into play? Are you worth what you are being paid?

Couple of disclaimers here… I’m not in a union, haven’t been in one for many years, and don’t want to be in one.

For you manufacturing guys the “unskilled and uneducated†phrase is not my words; just a phrase I keep seeing thrown around.

[Guest jackdog]

Just look at what the influx of illegals have done to the construction industry, that should give you a good idea.

[creeky]

No one held a gun to the big three and made them sign those contracts.

Those contracts are an agreed apon set of rules that both sides signed.

Everytime I hear about how the Unions are "sticking" it to the companies I have to roll my eyes. These companies aren't dumb, or ignorant of what they are signing. (Just an opinion.)

[Guest deut20:16]

We're not over paid, we're over engineered. When you have 4 engineers watching 2 hourly employees in kaizen somethings wrong!

[towerclimber37]

The threads about the auto industry and the union bashing made we wonder what some are thinking.

They blame the unions for the high wages of what they call “unskilled and uneducated” workers. I don’t know if they include the skilled trade workers that made all the parts that make up those products prior to being bolted together; but I would guess they do.

So what if we allow our manufacturing base to out sourced to other counties? Or what if we don’t, but we just do away with the pesky unions and get the wages reduced down to where these “unskilled and uneducated” workers need to be.

What will that do to your wages and your family’s lifestyle? Who here has a job that can’t be outsourced to another country, can’t be replaced with workers from other countries that will do your job for a fraction of the cost (like IT & Engineers), or will otherwise remain unaffected when all these wage cuts and job losses come into play? Are you worth what you are being paid?

Couple of disclaimers here… I’m not in a union, haven’t been in one for many years, and don’t want to be in one.

For you manufacturing guys the “unskilled and uneducated” phrase is not my words; just a phrase I keep seeing thrown around.

I WISH they could outsource my dang job...

I once had a job offer to teach climbing in Zimbabwe once...I called one of the guys up who'd worked over there and he said the hardest part of the job was getting them to wear boots to climb on the towers..every couple of months, one of them would slip and fall and then the rest wouldn't climb for awhile.

I'm a tower hand. We don't have unions. never needed them because we figure we can make our own deals. Our pay is our business..we don't discuss it with others.. and our word is our bond with our employers.

If other folks did that then there would be no need for unions!

And I'll tell ya..I haven't slowed down except for about a week and a half all year!

As for me being worth what I'm paid. Yes...Yes I am...actually I took a wage cut to work for General Dynamics.

matter of fact..I'm willing to bet that they'd pay any of you folks the same money I get to climb. Come on out and lets see what ya got!

Edited December 21, 2008 by towerclimber37

[Guest dkirby]

As a former climber (a sub for GD), I was not paid what I was worth. Of course, I worked for a worthless company...

Now I work at the mall part time that I'm back in college, it's a piddly job with piddly pay, just right

[DaveTN]

I'm willing to bet that they'd pay any of you folks the same money I get to climb. Come on out and lets see what ya got!

No freakin way I would do what you do. I get stressed cleaning out the gutters.

But I have to assume that you get paid for what you do after you get on those towers.

Because I could get guys to climb them for $5 an hour with no benefits and wouldn’t have to leave this area to do it.

But seriously… if all the $20-$25 an hour manufacturing jobs turn into $8-$10 an hour jobs; you think that won’t impact you?

[Guest pjblurton]

Hell... Half the time I feel like I'm overpaid for what I do.

I love my job and they take good care of me. Of course, I just found out that I will be taking a 5% pay decrease at the first of the year and will not get any bonuses, 401k matching or raises for FY09...

Guess I wasn't the only one that felt that way...

[DaveTN]

No one held a gun to the big three and made them sign those contracts.

Those contracts are an agreed apon set of rules that both sides signed.

Everytime I hear about how the Unions are "sticking" it to the companies I have to roll my eyes. These companies aren't dumb, or ignorant of what they are signing. (Just an opinion.)

Precisely.

Don’t get me wrong, the big 3 are not our friends in this and they are not victims of the union. Unions or no unions we can’t compete with foreign competition on a price basis unless to want the lifestyle of those countries.

Not even considering wages our companies here that want to manufacture a product have the cost of OSHA, EPA, Workman’s Comp, Unemployment Insurance, and many have Employee health insurance and 401K or retirement. Our foreign competitors don’t have those costs.

But what can be done about to without destroying our economy?

[R1100R]

I am in the Auto Auction Business and this has directly impacted our business.

I work on commission and have to work three times as hard as I used to for about half the pay. With five auctions within a 40 mile radius of Nashville, I stay on the road chasing every lead. Its not the auto manufacturers. Its the credit and loan issues. You have to have over a 700 Beacon score to by the last few months.

This has been going on longer than the big three auto companies. People have been scaling back for a year and a half.

[Guest m&pc9]

No one held a gun to the big three and made them sign those contracts.

Those contracts are an agreed apon set of rules that both sides signed.

Everytime I hear about how the Unions are "sticking" it to the companies I have to roll my eyes. These companies aren't dumb, or ignorant of what they are signing. (Just an opinion.)

I think the UAW are almost holding a gun to the head of the auto makers. If they want a raise and a better pension they will go on strike. So you either pay them more or you dont have any workers. I think the auto makers dont have a choice they are in union states. I think they should go bankrupt and get rid of the union ( just an opinion)

[Guest cjr]

I do approx. 200 small construction project per year in 17 states,when working in most of IL., IN. and PA. I am required to get bids from local union contractors,after 3 weeks to a month with out a single bid I use none union subs.When the union finds out they set up the big blow up ratt and picket.

The point is the unions will not allow the big 3 to operate with out them.They would rather pay the members a discounted wage to carry a poster board

I own my Corp. and pay myself well but my hours are 7AM to 7AM Monday - Monday.

My contractors keep the same hours and work on 30% - 35% profit margins.They are 30% - 40% lower than the union bids I do get and complete the projects in half the time.

Sorry if I got off topic.

[Guest bkelm18]

I personally get paid very poorly. But my job does have a lot of insurance and fringe benefits. Plus I get to work around animals from all different parts of the world. Kind of an added bonus, I suppose.

[Guest mw.]

But seriously… if all the $20-$25 an hour manufacturing jobs turn into $8-$10 an hour jobs; you think that won’t impact you?

You figures are quite a bit off from all I've been hearing reported about the auto industry. Didn't the 2007 contract drop new hires down to above your high figures?

It took the companies and the unions together along with some help from the government to put them in the shape they are now.

[TripleDigitRide]

Honestly, I'd like to think I'm worth what I get paid.

Can they find someone who's willing to do my job for less, I'm sure. This is especially true during these tough times. That's going to be a major issue when these folks who've recently been layed off try to find another job. Most of these companies know that most people applying for jobs are likely to be quite desperate, and any money is better than no money. They know they can offer lesser pay and many people are going to be willing to take the job, even if they will be making far less than before.

When I found my local truck driving job about 6 years ago, these jobs were everywhere. I'm lucky enough to have one of the highest paying (non-union) local trucking jobs in the Nashville area, but these jobs are not nearly as easy to find these days. If I lost my job, I'm fairly confident that I'd be forced to take a substantial pay cut. And that's assuming I could find one at all.

As far as the union workers go, their gravy train is about to run out of track. The bailout is only a very small band-aid on a very large problem. The Ford Glass Plant off Briley Pkwy. is a perfect example as to what's likely to happen with the rest of that UAW. That plant was hanging on by a thread for a very long time, and no matter what they tried to do, they couldn't prevent the inevitable. I have two very close friends who've worked over there for years, and now they are in serious financial troubles.

They were making roughly $100K/year, and now they'll be lucky to find a $10/hr job. Both of them barely finished high school, and always had this crazy notion that this $100K/year job that they just so happened to stumble upon would be there forever. On top of that, they also thought that even if it didn't last, they could find another one just like it.

I feel bad for them and anyone else like them. Unfortunately, they didn't listen to Dave Ramsey, because like all too many folks these days, they were up to their eyeballs in debt. Before it's all over, they will have lost everything they own. Reality bites, especially for those who refuse to see the writing on the wall.

[Rightwinger]

With a lawyer in every town, OSHA, Labor Boards, and the myriad of other regulatory agencies overseeing jobs in America, there are so many recourses for issues on the job that anyone with a legitimite gripe or concern can get is serviced. The unions are about one thing now...money. If they really cared about their workers, they would be trying to get small businesses in the fold. There is no money to be had there so they don't bother. Pay the guy on the line at GM what the guy at the suppliers get paid to do the same type activity and car makers will be on their way to profitability again. I also agree the upper management needs to be swept out and they need to start beating the foreign car mfgs at their own game. I can say with certainty that two of the big three have some really great logistics players in the game saving them tons of money. I am totally worth what I'm paid and wish I could get 1% of the cost savings I give them every year. Then I would easily be in six digits.

Two things have to go in America, Unions and the IRS. The market will then take care of it self if left alone to do so.

[Guest m&pc9]

With a lawyer in every town, OSHA, Labor Boards, and the myriad of other regulatory agencies overseeing jobs in America, there are so many recourses for issues on the job that anyone with a legitimite gripe or concern can get is serviced. The unions are about one thing now...money. If they really cared about their workers, they would be trying to get small businesses in the fold. There is no money to be had there so they don't bother. Pay the guy on the line at GM what the guy at the suppliers get paid to do the same type activity and car makers will be on their way to profitability again. I also agree the upper management needs to be swept out and they need to start beating the foreign car mfgs at their own game. I can say with certainty that two of the big three have some really great logistics players in the game saving them tons of money. I am totally worth what I'm paid and wish I could get 1% of the cost savings I give them every year. Then I would easily be in six digits.

Two things have to go in America, Unions and the IRS. The market will then take care of it self if left alone to do so.

+1 I agree

[DaveTN]

With a lawyer in every town, OSHA, Labor Boards, and the myriad of other regulatory agencies overseeing jobs in America, there are so many recourses for issues on the job that anyone with a legitimite gripe or concern can get is serviced.

Not in Tennessee you don’t. Tennessee is an employment at will state. You take a problem outside the company and you can be fired; they don’t even have to give a reason. Unless of course you are in a union or have an employment contract.

I know a guy that hurt his back lifting material onto a machine because they did not have the proper lifting equipment. He went to the Doctor and was pulled off work for three days with light duty to follow. He was let go for excessive absenteeism.

Does that sound fair to you?

Sure unemployment saw it for what it was and let him draw unemployment even though the employer fought it; but that didn’t help him from being fired.

Pay the guy on the line at GM what the guy at the suppliers get paid to do the same type activity and car makers will be on their way to profitability again.

You mean pay the line workers what the skilled trade workers that are manufacturing the parts make? How will that help?

Two things have to go in America, Unions and the IRS. The market will then take care of it self if left alone to do so.

So again…. It’s really not about unions it’s just that the union workers are paid more than you think they are worth? I’m not trying to be a smart azz; that’s what I’m hearing you say. And that’s fine if that is your opinion.

Again… it isn’t simply a market issue; our companies have cost imposed on them by our government that our competitors do not have. Everything has to be green here remember? The only green the foreign countries are worried about is our dollars.

I’m not sure what the IRS has to do with it; you will have to help out there. I agree they should de done away with though.

[Rightwinger]

Like you say, its an at will state but if you have a case, you have a case! I would dare say your "friend" with the injury had a bunch more going on because he had a case for being let with go after he presented a valid Doctors excuse. I have the perspective of having come at this from two different angles, one being a member of a management team at two companies over my career and also having been a private investigator. Let me state that a large part of your insurance rates tie directly back into all of us paying for frivolous or inflated accident and compensation claims. I only wish we could fire someone we knew was not performing on a whim and move on...but no, we have to re-train, document, re-train again, final warning, re-train, and THEN face a lawsuit when we let that person go in a at will state.

As far as "skilled labor". Show me how much skill it takes to slap that manifold down on that engine block? Move that instrument console into the cabin with the assistance of the pneumatic arms? Put the wheels on a freaking truck coming down the line and run in 4 to 8 nuts with a implact wrench? Come on man...when it comes to skills at a car plant it was the guys who put the line in (my brother works in that field). Lets face some reality here. There is not a whole bunch of skill going into those line jobs that are pushing those rates up to where they are. The union saying we will stop making those cars is what pushed them there.

They are paid more than the market anywhere else but their union shop would pay for that type of work. The suppliers we pick up from have more "skill" involved in making those parts and yet are not paid as well because the market determines those rates. You can not spend more on your labor and parts than you make on the sale of the car. Simple math even Gettlefinger can do.

The government being involved in "green" is back on us...we (not me) voted those folks in there. Its funny though how the Japanese, Korean, European car builders here in the states, that will not allow unions in their plants, are not having as much trouble meeting these requirements, are still profitable as long as the economy is moving, AND don't have their hands out!

They should be paid what the company can pay based on market processes and the company should be able to make a profit. That's why companies are formed and share holders put their capitol investments at risk! To show a profit.

The IRS thing was a freebie. Its a drain on the economy. There would be more tax revenue generated if it was a simplistic consumption based method. You could choose if you wanted to pay more tax when you decide you want that new item. The Fair Tax is the way to go. The we can loose this class warfare crap.

If you want to earn more, make your self competitive in the market place. That means school, education, a solid work ethic and a willingness to give a part of yourself to the company that is putting the house over your head and the food on your table.

Sorry it looks like a rant but this is so simple its almost to hard to put into words.

[strickj]

Dave; My mom was injured a couple years ago at work.

She was pulled off the job untill her wrist healed,then was on light duty once they brought her back in.

Just long nuff to get her off work comp.As soon as WC lifted,she was fired.

Long story short,she received close to 20grand in back pay because of the way hey fired her.

So,yes Tn is a will to work state,however in a case like hers,an the guy you mentiond,there is legal recourse available

[Rightwinger]

Glad your mom got her just dues Strick! For once we are seeing in the same direction.

There are some brain dead folks in management as well that forget there should be loyalty to those folks who punch the clocks as well. There are going to be folks who get hurt on the job and the laws are there to protect them. When both sides work together then things work out. The worker should get the medical aid they need to heal and then get back to work. The key here is that worker needs to use the system to get healed and then get back to work, not see it as an opportunity to take several months off at company expense or see a jackpot opportunity in a torn fingernail.

In a perfect world, management will then fix the issue that caused that injury so no others occur and the employee doesn't see a torn fingernail as a lottery winning.

[DaveTN]

Sorry it looks like a rant but this is so simple its almost to hard to put into words.

We can agree on that.

Okay… we are getting off track here. We are just rehashing the “It’s all the unions’ fault.†argument.

Let’s say it is. Do we fix it or do we just turn over our manufacturing base to foreign countries?

Nissan and Toyota have both said they don’t want to see the American manufactures go down. Because the domino effect of our manufacturing base collapsing will take out some of their suppliers also. Also, Who TF are they going to sell cars to when our economy is in trouble? People won’t be buying new cars.

But hey… on a brighter note I heard that Hillary said we don’t need to manufacture anything anyway.

So what say we just get rid of all those manufacturing jobs? Shut down the big 3 and their suppliers. Who wants to get their hands dirty anyway when they can lie on the couch and watch Oprah and Judge Judy all day?

Besides you work in logistics and I work in Aerospace; we won’t even notice it…. Right?

[DaveTN]

Also I have a question for those in the automotive industry.

I have seen it stated here on more than one occasion that Japanese automobile companies in the U.S. don’t have unions. Is that true; no Japanese car plants in this country are union?

[mdlave]

Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Mercedes, and others all have plants in the US, and are not having anywhere near the financial problems of the Big Three. No unions, so their workers get paid what the market will bear.

[Rightwinger]

Also I have a question for those in the automotive industry.

I have seen it stated here on more than one occasion that Japanese automobile companies in the U.S. don’t have unions. Is that true; no Japanese car plants in this country are union?

Mdlave is correct, no unions in the non big 3 plants (that I have heard of). My company actually lost a contract just because we had other locations that were union and this company did not even want to deal with the possibility of unions attempting organization at that facility.

Yes, I work in the logistics industry supporting GM and Chrysler. Even though I could suffer from their downturn, I won't turn over and say its okay because its for my paycheck. Thats the same attitude that got us here in the first place. If they go belly up, I'll turn off the satellite, loose the cell phones, pay only the house and transportation and find the next job.