Baton Rouge LA Officers shot

[56FordGuy]

1 hour ago, DaveTN said:

How did you come to that decision on Castile? Because the only evidence I have seen is a video where he was already shot when the video started. You going to judge the Officer on that?

What other evidence is available? If the officers had been wearing body cameras and the footage released we might be able to draw a different conclusion. Going off the evidence we have though, it looks like an otherwise innocent man was shot while reaching for his ID per the officer's directions. 

[MacGyver]

Title edited to spell the name of the city correctly.

[gregintenn]

Dave,

It appears I'm no longer the lone but telling you these things. Turns out there might be something to it, huh?

[Sidecarist]

The conversations about police culture being partly to blame for the current backlash against law enforcement need to also consider that culture as a whole has changed greatly. We have far too many people that feel that everyone else, or someone else is to blame for they type of life they are leading. Personal responsibility is not considered to be a virtue by many people today. Culture as a whole is very much about blame and not taking responsibility. We ask the police to take more and more responsibility for things like mental health screening, social work, family & drug counseling, the list is HUGE. As our culture as a whole has changed so have the many subcultures within it, the police are not immune to this.

Lets STOP pointing fingers at those we can easily label and identify and look within our own communities, states, and the federal government for the real causes of this divisive violent behavior. Many programs intended to have positive results have only made whole blocks of people dependent rather than independent. Best intentions can have unintended consequences. Rather than band aid a new program on top of a failed one we should end those programs that create dependencies and replace them with programs that create independence (feed a man vs teach him to fish). Individual independence is the founding principal of our country and in the last 240ish years we have lost sight of that.

We can use this thread to poke at each other but are we making the situation better? I admit I don't have the answers on my own for the country, but I have worked very hard to instill the value of individual independence in my children. I could do that, now that they are grown I'm looking elsewhere to try and continue to do the same. We need to change our culture as a whole rather than divide it up into bits and pieces and tear it apart...

[Smith]

This discussion is part of the problem IMO. Mixing two truths in an un truthful bowl. The militarization of the police is a problem, and needs top be discussed and fixed. The culture of no accountability or discipline in our communities is a problem and needs to be fixed.

However, these two items are not directly linked or related. They do cross each other from time to time, but they are not direct cause and/ effects. The raw statistics prove that time and again.

The problem is a media and leadership that has used the two problems by pitting them against each other. The beauty of the tactic is, since they aren't related, they can't be resolved together. That creates a chaotic and never ending pitting of grips against each other that can only escalate. The only winner will be the federal government who will gain more and more control and never solve anything.

[KKing]

This discussion is part of the problem IMO. Mixing two truths in an un truthful bowl. The militarization of the police is a problem, and needs top be discussed and fixed. The culture of no accountability or discipline in our communities is a problem and needs to be fixed.

However, these two items are not directly linked or related. They do cross each other from time to time, but they are not direct cause and/ effects. The raw statistics prove that time and again.

The problem is a media and leadership that has used the two problems by pitting them against each other. The beauty of the tactic is, since they aren't related, they can't be resolved together. That creates a chaotic and never ending pitting of grips against each other that can only escalate. The only winner will be the federal government who will gain more and more control and never solve anything.

Well stated.

Just out of curiosity, can one of you share with me what your idea of "militarization" is? Are you referring to tactics used, gear worn, what exactly? I mean, I feel like I hear that term tossed around, but I don't think I've ever had someone define it. In their opinion, of course.

[gregintenn]

7 minutes ago, KKing said:

Well stated.

Just out of curiosity, can one of you share with me what your idea of "militarization" is? Are you referring to tactics used, gear worn, what exactly? I mean, I feel like I hear that term tossed around, but I don't think I've ever had someone define it. In their opinion, of course.

Sure. I'm old enough to remember a Mayberry type police force in my small hometown, complete with officers who wore a tie instead of bdu's. You could actually have a conversation with these gentlemen, and knew them by name. People respected them because they earned it. This is a far cry from what one encounters on the street today. I see an us versus them mentality among today's officers that wasn't always present.

[KKing]

Sure. I'm old enough to remember a Mayberry type police force in my small hometown, complete with officers who wore a tie instead of bdu's. You could actually have a conversation with these gentlemen, and knew them by name. People respected them because they earned it. This is a far cry from what one encounters on the street today. I see an us versus them mentality among today's officers that wasn't always present.

I guess in my parts the only time I see any type of gear is in a SWAT situation.

To your point, I suppose I would ask you if you believed these "encounters" on the street you speak of aren't the same because of a decay in morality and respect in our society, and therefore less respect for authority, or because of this "militarization"?
I can't for a second believe that policing now is what it was 60 years ago.

[gregintenn]

1 minute ago, KKing said:

 

I guess in my parts the only time I see any type of gear is in a SWAT situation.

To your point, I suppose I would ask you if you believed these "encounters" on the street you speak of aren't the same because of a decay in morality and respect in our society, and therefore less respect for authority, or because of this "militarization"?
I can't for a second believe that policing now is what it was 60 years ago.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong. I just tried to answer your question from the perspective of someone completely detached from law enforcement.

[Patton]

29 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

Sure. I'm old enough to remember a Mayberry type police force in my small hometown, complete with officers who wore a tie instead of bdu's. You could actually have a conversation with these gentlemen, and knew them by name. People respected them because they earned it. This is a far cry from what one encounters on the street today. I see an us versus them mentality among today's officers that wasn't always present.

Believe me, I wish we still lived in those times. Today's street thug would kill Barney on his first tour. Yesterday's Mayberry is now Methberry or Pilltown. While my grandfather who was once a lawman liked Andy Griffith, he reminded me that the show and town was a fictional place. Today's cop may actually start out as the friendly kid next door but they quickly get seasoned by continuous assaults, lies, and trickery. It is estimated that only 10-20% of the people you make contact with are the good, productive members of society. Society started the us verses them mentality; it wasn't the cops. More than once I got assaulted by the "victim" in a case. More often than not people will tell you one story and then tell you a different story once a case goes to court. Even if you have a statement or a recording they will say they were coerced into stating one thing over another. I have had very nice contacts with people on the street only to get back and find a complaint had been filed against me. I am all for video and audio recordings even though they only tell a part of the story. You often find yourself in a damned if you don't and damned if you do situations, and domestic situations may be the worst. 

I was always polite and always enjoyed talking to people. Believe me, I enjoyed talking to the normal people. You can quickly forget that there are good people in the world. I knew a lot of the citizens names in my town regardless of whether or not they had continuous calls for service or not. I never held a grudge once someone lied to me, and believe me, everyone lies to the police. I have had my own preacher lie to me before because I was wearing a badge. 

[Omega]

I whole heartedly agree that culture is to blame for these situations, but on what culture we disagree.  When I am pulled over, I don't disrespect the LEO, I don't try and second guess the reason for the stop.  In my youth I too had run-ins with, lets say less than stellar, police officers, but that didn't make me out to hate the entire institution.  Lately I have seen too many automatically start to argue with an officer even though they, the citizen, was in the wrong.  For the most part No, you did not get pulled over because you were black, brown, or white trailer trash; you were either pulled over for a traffic offence, or worse yet because you match the description of someone who committed a crime.

When an officer pulls you over for a traffic offence, he may not know that you just committed a robbery, car jacking, or murder and that you will not be taken in alive;  He is just doing his job.  When you are pulled over, you don't know that he just come off of a robbery where someone that looks like you just murdered the clerk and a couple of customers.  You are armed, and in either case it is not smart to mouth off and make the situation worse, or worse yet make sudden movements triggering a response.  The culture today is what is making it an us against them climate, and it's not entirely the police officers fault.  I do believe that there needs to be a whole lot of changes on both sides to get the situation a bit better; but it will not be the way BLM wants it to be, and definitely not the way the Black Panther Party wants it.  The numbers don't lie, it is not about race since whites, blacks and browns get killed when something goes bad during a LEO confrontation, if anything the numbers on the black side seem a bit low to me considering the crime stats.  I don't see anyone but BLM and BPP protesting though; and if they were honest about the whole thing they would be protesting in the inner cities against the criminals there instead of Capitol Hill. 

[DaveTN]

4 hours ago, 56FordGuy said:

What other evidence is available? If the officers had been wearing body cameras and the footage released we might be able to draw a different conclusion. Going off the evidence we have though, it looks like an otherwise innocent man was shot while reaching for his ID per the officer's directions. 

Only if you don't believe what the Officer said in the video. Or if you believe that Officer on that day decided to kill someone for no reason.

[Hozzie]

Dave, the problem isn't about believing the officer or making silly statements like we think he decided to kill someone for no reason.  That is counterproductive.  In his mind, I am sure he believed what he said.  The issue is whether or not the officer made the right decision in the overall context of the stop.  We will never know the full story and camera's would help with that.  

The only way to improve the SOP's so these events happen less is to fully understand what happened in the moment.  Snippets here and there don't help us do that effectively.  More information is always better than less.  If a cop has an issue wearing a camera, they don't need to be in the profession, simple as that.  

 

 

[Grand Torino]

The fact still remains that crazy SOB's are murdering in cold blood police officers in the streets. There is no justification for that at all. Many things are broken in this country and blame starts from the Inciter in Chief down. All of you that seem to be able to predict things and know all the reasons may want to start using your powers to come up with reasonable, safe solutions because this crap happening in the streets is not the answer and does nothing to promote anything but more hate. Stupid people do stupid things.

[Sidecarist]

45 minutes ago, Grand Torino said:

The fact still remains that crazy SOB's are murdering in cold blood police officers in the streets. There is no justification for that at all. Many things are broken in this country and blame starts from the Inciter in Chief down. All of you that seem to be able to predict things and know all the reasons may want to start using your powers to come up with reasonable, safe solutions because this crap happening in the streets is not the answer and does nothing to promote anything but more hate. Stupid people do stupid things.

Well said!

[btq96r]

7 hours ago, DaveTN said:

I think the best Judge of what an Officer needs is the Officer and the Police administration. I won’t arm chair quarterback those decisions.

No one would dare suggest that our military not have what they need. Apparently you have been in combat while in the military? I never was when I was in the military but I have been on the streets of my hometown. I have been in shootings and I have had people try to kill me. In two incidents 18 Police Officers have been shot, 8 of them died. In one case they were facing an AR, in the other an SKS.  So please explain to me why those cops deserve anything less than our military has.

Would the kinds of vests that would save their lives not be what they needed regardless of what they look like to you?

They can have the same protection that the military has.  It's the armor inside the vest that determines the survivability, not how many pouches you can attach to it or what color it is.  If a city wants to equip their police with ESAPI level protection, go for it.  But they need to look like law enforcement and present an aura of openness to the public.  Not lookatme, taticool commandos, who want to get their war on.

 

7 hours ago, DaveTN said:

Really? You want to tell the cops they need to wait until the gun is pointed at them? Since you obviously have never been in that situation let me fill you in…when that happens it’s too late. Would you like to apply your requirements to HCP holders also or just cops?

If I wasn't seeing what I can only view as a lot of scared cops firing first and thinking second, I would be more sympathetic to the point you raise.  I've quite frankly lost faith in the ability of law enforcement to overcome the "just get home at the end of the shift" mentality when assessing risk.  It's clouding their judgement, IMO.  They can have their guns drawn and on target with the safety (if applicable) disengaged, but they shouldn't be allowed to fire unless there in direct threat, not the potential of a threat.

And yeah, HCP holders should have that requirement too.  The use of deadly force needs to be a damn high bar.

 

7 hours ago, DaveTN said:

How did you come to that decision on Castile? Because the only evidence I have seen is a video where he was already shot when the video started. You going to judge the Officer on that?

I based it on the officers comment "I told him not to reach for it!"  That tells me that the officer didn't have a weapon drawn on him, and if that gun never left the holster (or cleared the inside of Castile's pants if he was carrying without one), that officer needs to be fired for cause, and open to civil liabilities.  I'm not there yet on criminal charges since the laws as they are written now would preclude that as best I know.