Baton Rouge LA Officers shot

[Chucktshoes]

7 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

I don’t think things need to get worse before they get better. I also don’t think there will be a break down in society. An attack on our Police Officers is an attack on us; I think it will take a minute for most folks to realize that, but then things will change.

I don’t know that there is much the Federal government can do other than get Obama to quit giving these criminals some legitimacy.

Local governments need simply give their Police Officer the tools to kill the people that are attacking them and stand by their Officers when they are attacked by criminals.

This represents the fundamental misunderstanding of the issues at play that have led us to the situation at hand. This approach will only worsen the situation and lead to increased bloodshed. 

[DaveTN]

3 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

This represents the fundamental misunderstanding of the issues at play that have led us to the situation at hand. This approach will only worsen the situation and lead to increased bloodshed. 

Innocent cops are being murdered by criminals. Fill me in on what I don’t understand.

[KKing]

Edit: Nevermind. Even after the explanation, I doubt I would understand

[Chucktshoes]

3 minutes ago, Erik88 said:

I'm curious what encounters you have experienced in your life that has made you feel this way.  From the age of 16 until 20 I was pulled over 13 times. I would say only one stop was somewhat questionable but even then the cop was fair. In fact, only once did I encounter a cop that was a prick. I think the vast majority of cops are good people that are doing a very difficult job. As someone else said, we need to appreciate the good ones and hold the bad ones accountable.

Blaming all "rank and file officers on the street" doesn't seem like the solution to me.

I'm not laying blame, condoning or condemning anyone. I'm simply looking at the situation for what it is and attempting to analyze the situation in search of solutions. When I say that the future is in the hands of the rank and file I mean that if they reject the notion that changes need to be made and adopt a more aggressive stance and clamp down harder, the situation will deteriorate, and quickly. 

[btq96r]

30 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

Local governments need simply give their Police Officer the tools to kill the people that are attacking them and stand by their Officers when they are attacked by criminals.

They have their service pistols.  Also, depending on the local budget, they may have shotguns or long guns in the cruisers (and on them as needed), along with body armor.  What else should they be have available for a standard duty shift?

[Chucktshoes]

36 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

Innocent cops are being murdered by criminals. Fill me in on what I don’t understand.

It would be a lot quicker to fill you in on what you do understand.

Nothing. 

 

Policing in in this country is fundamentally broken. What happened in Dallas and Baton Rouge, while not justifiable, were so entirely predictable that many folks, including myself, have been saying for years it would happen. If you want examples of why your "let the cops go kill them" strategy is doomed to failure you need to look no further than the revolutionary wars in South America. Engaging in acts of violence to draw an increasingly aggressive and harsh counter measures from the government on the populace is so predictable in its effectiveness that it is in the freaking manuals disseminated by South American revolutionary forces. When I said that the game had elevated after Dallas, I meant it. If you view this as a simple law and order situation then you have no idea what is really going on and what you suggest will only draw more support for those that you oppose. If you are really interested in ending the bloodshed then you have to look at the real root causes of the issue and search for actual solutions instead of seeking to preserve the status quo. 

Edited July 18, 2016 by Chucktshoes

[KKing]

Another thread, another downward spiral.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DaveTN]

36 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

It would be a lot quicker to fill you in on what you do understand.

Nothing. 

Oh my gosh….. I don’t know why we even try to have intelligent conversations on this it is hopeless. You are blinded by hate.

[Chucktshoes]

15 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

Oh my gosh….. I don’t know why we even try to have intelligent conversations on this it is hopeless. You are blinded by hate.

I'm not blinded by anything Dave, but I'm not the one playing ostrich either. I love how you completely ignore the entire rest of that post and every other one I have made where I lay out the issues that are actually in play here. The cognitive dissonance is strong with you as you refuse to even acknowledge anything that even remotely contradicts your "cops are innocent good guys" world view. Like it or not, there is a fundamental and serious disconnect between police agencies and the communities they purportedly serve. That's a fact. There are many different ideas on how to address that disconnect. Some I favor over others but if you can't see the problem exists, then you can't be part of finding the solution. 

 

ETA: let me unpack one of my statements a little. While the individual officers who lost their lives in these shootings are likely innocent of wrongdoing , this isn't a conversation about individuals. The subject is the broken state of policing as a whole in this country. If that subject isn't adequately addressed then we can expect more incidents like Dallas and Baton Rouge. That doesn't justify them in the least, but that doesn't mean that they won't be entirely predictable. 

Edited July 18, 2016 by Chucktshoes

[TNWNGR]

59 minutes ago, btq96r said:

They have their service pistols.  Also, depending on the local budget, they may have shotguns or long guns in the cruisers (and on them as needed), along with body armor.  What else should they be have available for a standard duty shift?

Those are a good start but a good communications system that can't be motored by everyone in scanner land is another along with good portable and car radios. A lot of agencies don't have the money to do this. The next would be more time and money invested in force on force and de-escalation training. Conflict resolution when things are tense isn't something that comes naturally. There's been some really good training with respect to Active Shooter's but there needs to be some tactical changes made in it.  The only other practical tools I'd put in patrol officers hands would be more ballistic shields. A lot of soft armor types are available that would be great.

[gregintenn]

27 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

Oh my gosh….. I don’t know why we even try to have intelligent conversations on this it is hopeless. You are blinded by hate.

I see no hate here, and no one is condoning murder. Sooner or later, however, if police treat people wrongly enough, people will get tired of it and do something about it. That's what you see happening now.

 

Is the media helping to gin this up? YES

Is your president helping to gin this up? YES

Do police have some responsibility in ginning this up? ABSOLUTELY

Is it going to get worse? I'd think so

How do we fix it? I don't have a clue

Edited July 18, 2016 by gregintenn

[Chucktshoes]

5 minutes ago, TNWNGR said:

Those are a good start but a good communications system that can't be motored by everyone in scanner land is another along with good portable and car radios. A lot of agencies don't have the money to do this. The next would be more time and money invested in force on force and de-escalation training. Conflict resolution when things are tense isn't something that comes naturally. There's been some really good training with respect to Active Shooter's but there needs to be some tactical changes made in it.  The only other practical tools I'd put in patrol officers hands would be more ballistic shields. A lot of soft armor types are available that would be great.

I believe this to be a crucial first step towards alleviating the tensions between police and their communities. Violent force needs to return to being the very last resort. Whether it actually is or not, the perception exists that it is the go to option for police when dealing with the public. As long as that is the case, progress will be very hard to make. 

I think another crucial thing we need to do is reevaluate the job we expect police to do. There are so many so called crimes against which exist laws that police are expected to enforce (and that's what policing is, the exercise of force by the government) that should not even be crimes in the first place that it puts police officers in an impossible position. I'm of the opinion that if police are going to exist at all, their focus needs to be on crimes involving an actual victim. If we can't point to an actual victim whose life, liberty or property have been violated then it isn't a job for police. "Broken windows" policing may have given the appearance of an orderly society but it has also separated officers from the populace they serve and in some communities turned them into something more akin to a foreign occupying force than agents of peace. That has to change. 

[btq96r]

48 minutes ago, KKing said:

Another thread, another downward spiral.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't think we're at a downward spiral yet...though it can come out of nowhere fast enough when we get into these things.

I do think that it's telling that on a sight as tilted to the right as TGO is, that there is a still vocal minority of opinion that as a profession, law enforcement needs to take a hard look at how they carry out their duties and think about if they are exacerbating the problem. 

 

5 minutes ago, TNWNGR said:

Those are a good start but a good communications system that can't be motored by everyone in scanner land is another along with good portable and car radios. A lot of agencies don't have the money to do this. The next would be more time and money invested in force on force and de-escalation training. Conflict resolution when things are tense isn't something that comes naturally. There's been some really good training with respect to Active Shooter's but there needs to be some tactical changes made in it.  The only other practical tools I'd put in patrol officers hands would be more ballistic shields. A lot of soft armor types are available that would be great.

Encrypted comms would be a huge cost, one that I think could be better allocated. I do admit to liking the idea of open frequencies so someone other than the police have the ability to record the traffic for future use.  Better radio range and reception for the officers and other first responders is another legit need.  Force on force and de-escalation training is definitely needed.

But Dave specifically said " tools to kill the people that are attacking them," and I'm at a loss as to what that means when you look at existing force rules (which I think are a bit too loose to begin with), and their issued equipment.

[Wingshooter]

Let's place the blame sqaurly where it belongs and keep our eye on the ball. This goes all the way to the top. The great divider has driven a wedge in the country from the beginning of his Fundamental Transformation. This is but one more piece. I'm not saying he nor anyone else in the government has a hand in the killings, but the atmosphere of hate, unrest, tension and racial divide spews from this administration. The atmosphere for this to happen is part of his legacy.

Remember the cop that "acted stupidly"? He showed the world on TV how to disrespect LEOs. He's showed us how terror groups can target our military and LEOS in our cities, claim credit for it and not suffer any consequenses. He has validated the BLM movement with his comments. The list goes on.

Yep, I blame the guy who likes to use a good crisis to his advantage for the atmosphere for this sort of thing to even exist.

 

I support our law enforcement. I'm not sure what the answer is other than a change in atmosphere.

 

[DaveTN]

42 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

I'm not blinded by anything Dave, but I'm not the one playing ostrich either. I love how you completely ignore the entire rest of that post and every other one I have made where I lay out the issues that are actually in play here. The cognitive dissonance is strong with you as you refuse to even acknowledge anything that even remotely contradicts your "cops are innocent good guys" world view. Like it or not, there is a fundamental and serious disconnect between police agencies and the communities they purportedly serve. That's a fact. There are many different ideas on how to address that disconnect. Some I favor over others but if you can't see the problem exists, then you can't be part of finding the solution. 

 

ETA: let me unpack one of my statements a little. While the individual officers who lost their lives in these shootings are likely innocent of wrongdoing , this isn't a conversation about individuals. The subject is the broken state of policing as a whole in this country. If that subject isn't adequately addressed then we can expect more incidents like Dallas and Baton Rouge. That doesn't justify them in the least, but that doesn't mean that they won't be entirely predictable. 

Well if you think you are visionary because you predicted criminals would kill cops; let me make some predictions. The Police are not going to back down when threatened with deadly force any more than any citizen or member of this forum would if they were threatened with deadly force. Each individual use of force will be dealt with as an individual case and dealt with on a case by case basis; as it should be. No action of any Police Officer in any Police Department caused those sick dirt bags to start shooting cops in Dallas and Baton Rouge. They are people that have severe mental problems and have made up their minds to die. They aren’t revolting against anything; they are acting on hate that they can no longer deal with. They will be killed where they make their stand or they will (hopefully) be executed by the government they hate so much. The American people will support their Police Officers.

Those are my predictions.

[Sidecarist]

In the simplest of terms. I don't care what your career or color is. If your a violent a$$ then you should get what you have coming to you.

This is all about hate and haters. If we want to live in a civilized society the society as a whole needs to reject the haters and what they represent.

[DaveTN]

27 minutes ago, btq96r said:

But Dave specifically said " tools to kill the people that are attacking them," and I'm at a loss as to what that means when you look at existing force rules (which I think are a bit too loose to begin with), and their issued equipment.

The same as with your Fire Departments; whatever they need. Body armor, weapons, whatever. Bank of America showed that the responding Officers didn’t have what they needed to stop the threat; Ronnie Barrett fixed that for them. I remember when some folks on here were complaining about cops having military vehicles. One of those armored vehicles was used to approach the nightclub in Orlando, protect the Officers, and knock a hole in the building to gain access and let victims out.

 

Now explain to me why you think the rules are “a bit loose”? In all 50 states the basic requirement is the same for the cops as it is for the rest of us. Immediate danger of death or great bodily harm. If that requirement is not met; the cop can stand trial. But just like you that cop is innocent until proven guilty. And like it or not he is going to get the benefit of the doubt if the person he shot is armed.

 

[gregintenn]

1 hour ago, DaveTN said:

Oh my gosh….. I don’t know why we even try to have intelligent conversations on this it is hopeless. You are blinded by hate.

If I could find any hate in this thread, I'd likely be looking at your posts.

[Omega]

1 hour ago, btq96r said:

They have their service pistols.  Also, depending on the local budget, they may have shotguns or long guns in the cruisers (and on them as needed), along with body armor.  What else should they be have available for a standard duty shift?

Apparently level IV plates and steel penetrators, maybe depleted uranium by the sound of it.  Right now they are expected to engage 7.62 carrying armor wearing POS terrorists with level IIIa armor and either 9mm or .40 handguns. 

[Chucktshoes]

 

6 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

Well if you think you are visionary because you predicted criminals would kill cops; let me make some predictions. The Police are not going to back down when threatened with deadly force any more than any citizen or member of this forum would if they were threatened with deadly force. Each individual use of force will be dealt with as an individual case and dealt with on a case by case basis; as it should be. No action of any Police Officer in any Police Department caused those sick dirt bags to start shooting cops in Dallas and Baton Rouge. They are people that have severe mental problems and have made up their minds to die. They aren’t revolting against anything; they are acting on hate that they can no longer deal with. They will be killed where they make their stand or they will (hopefully) be executed by the government they hate so much. The American people will support their Police Officers.

Those are my predictions.

Like I said before, it's a lot quicker to explain what it is that you actually understand. I will grant that you are right about one thing, it is pretty pointless for you and I to engage on this issue. Though not for the reasons you think. You appear to be more interested in protecting your presuppositional worldview than in the actual problems or the actual solutions to those problems. Here is the hard truth. You say that "the American will support their police officers" yet you completely ignore the reality that a significant portion of the population doesn't view the police as their own. If you can't see the reality of that, then you can't change the reality of that. If we really want to stop this from spiraling out of control then we need to change that state of affairs. Your simplistic views and solutions will only result in more dead citizens and more dead officers. 

[btq96r]

19 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

The same as with your Fire Departments; whatever they need. Body armor, weapons, whatever. Bank of America showed that the responding Officers didn’t have what they needed to stop the threat; Ronnie Barrett fixed that for them. I remember when some folks on here were complaining about cops having military vehicles. One of those armored vehicles was used to approach the nightclub in Orlando, protect the Officers, and knock a hole in the building to gain access and let victims out.

I think there is a difference between a BearCat (what was used in Orlando), and an MRAP/M-ATV, especially since the BearCat was designed for police use. 

As to the rest of the gear, I'm not opposed to officers having increased firepower (not automatic) and better body armor (Lvl III or IV would be a department choice), but I think absent an incident in progress, the proper place for at least the rifle or shotgun is in the trunk.  I'd also like to see the body armor be more of the low-vis style, not the PALS webbing all over type...not unless it's the SWAT team anyway.  The kinds of vests the Murfreesboro PD are using now would be an ideal one if they can accommodate hard armor.

 

19 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

Now explain to me why you think the rules are “a bit loose”? In all 50 states the basic requirement is the same for the cops as it is for the rest of us. Immediate danger of death or great bodily harm. If that requirement is not met; the cop can stand trial. But just like you that cop is innocent until proven guilty. And like it or not he is going to get the benefit of the doubt if the person he shot is armed.

We're starting to stretch the interpenetration of "immediate danger of death or great bodily harm," IMO.  I'd like to see it brought in line with overt acts of hostile intent.  Simply reaching for, or even drawing a gun shouldn't be enough to justify the police firing first.  Drawing and pointing a gun at an officer would meet the criteria.

Alton Sterling and Philando Castile seem to be two cases where a stricter standard might have been good things...though in Sterling's case, his appearing to resist arrest makes it a less clear situation (the videos are still unclear on that one).  Still, I would think that two officers in a position of leverage would have been able to contain the situation.  That may be a training and conditioning issue.  Castile on the other hand did not convey a sense of immediate danger of death or great bodily harm to me.  I'm still waiting for more on that investigation to come out.  All the other news has seemingly buried it.

 

18 minutes ago, Omega said:

Apparently level IV plates and steel penetrators, maybe depleted uranium by the sound of it.  Right now they are expected to engage 7.62 carrying armor wearing POS terrorists with level IIIa armor and either 9mm or .40 handguns. 

See my first reply to Dave.  While I don't disagree that rifle rounds are becoming a more prevalent threat, vs. the once in a blue moon occasion, the most likely threat is still a handgun of the common criminal encounter variety.

Also, the more heavy armor you put on the police the less effective they will be in movement.  One thing I try to remember is that police officers aren't always held to a physical fitness standard, and their median age isn't exactly spring chicken.  So, the more weight they have to carry around, the less effective they could be in response situation.  The trade-offs from armor weight has always been an ebb and flow thing.

[nightrunner]

In response to police use of force, it would do a whole lot for public relations of cops didn't walk around with their hand on the grip of their pistol while still holstered. Walking up on a simple traffic stop, whether it be speeding or running a stop sign or even something simpler than that, they have no reason to have their hand on their gun as well as a stand of fish attitude. They shouldn't be drawing their gun every time the wind changes direction either. They should have the same guidelines as a civilian in regards to drawing their firearm. Immediate threat only. As a civilian, I can't go around pointing my gun at people just because they act threatening or refuse to comply to what I say.

 

I say a large part of the problem is a lot of officers especially the younger ones are ex military and they haven't completely gotten away from the "us vs them" mentality. It's not a war and the civilians are not the enemy. Until this is remedied, I don't see this problem getting any better.

 

If the civilians and police as a whole had a mutual respect for each other, these murderers would have no place to hide.

 

[Links2k]

I've never worked as a civilian officer, so I can't speak to their experiences.  I did work as a 95B Military Policeman in the old days, and there are a few things that the civilians can learn from their military counterparts. Tact, communication and deescalation/escalation of force skills.

Many times as an MP we would deal with guys who could out shoot us or beat the hell out of us in seconds.  The skills that I mentioned above, especially effective communication, deescalated most situations.   

Sometimes it seems that civilian cops can't deescalate a situation by talking, but recently, often times it doesn't appear that the level of force used was inappropriate for the threat. 

I agree with chucktshoes that unless police departments reevaluate and revamp their training to end the perception of being an occupying force in the communities in which they serve, we are only seeing the beginning of the push back. 

Edited July 18, 2016 by LINKS2K

[DaveTN]

8 hours ago, btq96r said:

I think there is a difference between a BearCat (what was used in Orlando), and an MRAP/M-ATV, especially since the BearCat was designed for police use. 

Well they are spelled differently. So there's that.

8 hours ago, btq96r said:

As to the rest of the gear, I'm not opposed to officers having increased firepower (not automatic) and better body armor (Lvl III or IV would be a department choice), but I think absent an incident in progress, the proper place for at least the rifle or shotgun is in the trunk.  I'd also like to see the body armor be more of the low-vis style, not the PALS webbing all over type...not unless it's the SWAT team anyway.  The kinds of vests the Murfreesboro PD are using now would be an ideal one if they can accommodate hard armor.

I think the best Judge of what an Officer needs is the Officer and the Police administration. I won’t arm chair quarterback those decisions.

No one would dare suggest that our military not have what they need. Apparently you have been in combat while in the military? I never was when I was in the military but I have been on the streets of my hometown. I have been in shootings and I have had people try to kill me. In two incidents 18 Police Officers have been shot, 8 of them died. In one case they were facing an AR, in the other an SKS.  So please explain to me why those cops deserve anything less than our military has.

Would the kinds of vests that would save their lives not be what they needed regardless of what they look like to you?

 

8 hours ago, btq96r said:

We're starting to stretch the interpenetration of "immediate danger of death or great bodily harm," IMO.  I'd like to see it brought in line with overt acts of hostile intent.  Simply reaching for, or even drawing a gun shouldn't be enough to justify the police firing first.  Drawing and pointing a gun at an officer would meet the criteria.

Really? You want to tell the cops they need to wait until the gun is pointed at them? Since you obviously have never been in that situation let me fill you in…when that happens it’s too late. Would you like to apply your requirements to HCP holders also or just cops?

8 hours ago, btq96r said:

Alton Sterling and Philando Castile seem to be two cases where a stricter standard might have been good things...though in Sterling's case, his appearing to resist arrest makes it a less clear situation (the videos are still unclear on that one).  Still, I would think that two officers in a position of leverage would have been able to contain the situation.  That may be a training and conditioning issue.  Castile on the other hand did not convey a sense of immediate danger of death or great bodily harm to me.  I'm still waiting for more on that investigation to come out.  All the other news has seemingly buried it.

How did you come to that decision on Castile? Because the only evidence I have seen is a video where he was already shot when the video started. You going to judge the Officer on that?

[56FordGuy]

30 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

No one would dare suggest that our military not have what they need. Apparently you have been in combat while in the military? I never was when I was in the military but I have been on the streets of my hometown. I have been in shootings and I have had people try to kill me. In two incidents 18 Police Officers have been shot, 8 of them died. In one case they were facing an AR,

The military is out to destroy an enemy. The police are not. The more officers want to dress up and act like the people they interact with are enemy combatants, it should come as no surprise when those people begin acting like enemy combatants. 

 

33 minutes ago, DaveTN said:

Really? You want to tell the cops they need to wait until the gun is pointed at them? Since you obviously have never been in that situation let me fill you in…when that happens it’s too late. Would you like to apply your requirements to HCP holders also or just cops?

The requirements for justified deadly force should be the exact same for officers as it should any armed person. They are citizens and civilians, not an elite strike force taking out terrorists in Fallujah. 

 

What i find concerning is that so many officers and former officers seem to be incapable of considering that perhaps over the last several decades, police culture has played a role in building up to the situation we have today. I certainly don't mean to say any of the officers that have been shot deserved it, but to say that police culture has played absolutely no role in this and that 100% of the blame lies on the public is beyond ridiculous. Forget getting someone to say the officers have ever done anything wrong, we can't even get some folks to concede that maybe there are things they could do better. It's almost like talking to someone that's joined a cult  

 

Officers are are taught to take control of a situation. All too often, they attempt to do that by escalating the amount of force used. If armored trucks and more guns are their go to answer here, I think we're going to see a lot of things get worse. The citizens that officers are supposed to protect aren't the enemy. The more we get treated like we are, the more a segment of society is going to act like one. 

 

And I do think it's rather telling when folks who have been steeped in police culture decry using any new technology that could hold officers accountable like body cameras, but are eager for new guns, new body armor and military vehicles.