Philando Castille shooting

[Chucktshoes]

http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/07/us/falcon-heights-shooting-minnesota/

 

These stories normally don't get posted about and discussed here for several reasons. This one I felt important to post here and I hope that a reasonable discussion can be had on it because this directly affects all of us here. 

The facts as they are known at this time. 

Philando Castille was pulled over for a broken tail light. He was reaching for his license and registration per officer request. At this time he informed the officer that he had a carry license and was armed. He was then shot by the officer and later died at the hospital. By all accounts Philando Castille was an upstanding and hardworking citizen with no record who worked as a nutritionist at a Montessori school. The kind of person we say we want to be armed. 

 

While I have my own thoughts on this shooting with regards to the roles played by race and LE in this shooting, I would like to focuse on the idea that many of us have that having a permit somehow makes us one of the "good guys" and that that fact will be instantly recognized by other "good guys". By all accounts Philando Castille did what many of us here stated we do, or have recommended others do when in that situation. Yet, he still ended up dead. What went wrong and what are the real root causes?

[monkeylizard]

44 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

At this time he informed the officer that he had a carry license and was armed.

<<snip>>

He was then shot by the officer and later died at the hospital.

The facts that are unknown at this time are what happened in between those two actions. The officer didn't have a body cam, so we'll never know as the live stream started after the second action.

It's possible we have a racist cop that ignored "lawfully carrying with a license, sir. What are your instructions" and only heard "black dude with a gun OMG!".

It's also possible that between action 1 and action 2, the officer told the man to keep his hands where he could see them and keep his hands away from his gun, but the man suddenly and quickly reached his hand to his side anyway. Maybe to get his wallet. Maybe to get his gun. Maybe he had a bad itch he just had to scratch.

We'll probably never know the truth. The officer will say the man reached for his gun and he was in fear of his life. The fiancée will say the man was cooperating fully. Without video of the actual and complete stop, we'll never know.

Edited July 7, 2016 by monkeylizard

[gregintenn]

You're about to see some serious stuff go down in this country. No one has any respect for others, and what used to be a "your word against the police" case has been all but done away with since everyone has a phone with a camera on their person.

 

As authority clamps down ever harder, folks are getting quite wary of government and authority in general. 

 

Between this and the shooting in Baton Rouge, law enforcement aren't doing themselves any favors.

[MacGyver]

I'm hopeful that our country will come out the back end of this with stronger protections for individuals.  While it's causing a lot of pain right now, it's also shining a bright light on problems in a lot of cases. 

I could probably say a lot about this, but I'll just say I'm sympathetic.

You'll hear a lot of people push back, but as a general rule they're not black and dead because they had a broken taillight or were selling loose cigarettes.

[Sidecarist]

Regardless of this case I think Chucks point is how do we interact with LEO's to make sure that we are seen as the good guys and don't find ourselves in the same situation. For me its about clear communication and removing any threatening behavior from my side of the transaction. 

1. If possible have my ID out and ready.
2. Roll all the windows down if possible to make the interior of the car/passengers visable. (turn on the dome light if its dark).
3. If the officer asks me about being armed/weapons I will tell them. If not I keep my mouth shut.
4. If I do tell the officer that I am armed that's exactly how I say it. NOT "I have a Gun". Then I ASK the officer what they want me to do and do it.

Only once was I asked to step out of the car and disarm myself. It was done professionally.

I have sympathy for LEO's in general for the work they do and the danger it puts them in. They have a professional duty to protect the public and themselves. I respect that and do my level best to never make them think of me as any kind of threat. Most LEO's have treated me with similar respect in return.

We may never know the actual events of this case. It doesn't look good at first blush for any number of reasons. Its a sad thing that a man lost his life. I hope that it does get figured out.

 

 

[quietguy]

8 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

I'm hopeful that our country will come out the back end of this with stronger protections for individuals.  While it's causing a lot of pain right now, it's also shining a bright light on problems in a lot of cases. 

I could probably say a lot about this, but I'll just say I'm sympathetic.

You'll hear a lot of people push back, but as a general rule they're not black and dead because they had a broken taillight or were selling loose cigarettes.

That is very well said.  

We may never know the truth, and I tend to give the officer the benefit of doubt, but one man lost his life and another will have to live with it the rest of his.  

[bud]

.

 

Edited July 18, 2016 by bud

[TNWNGR]

16 minutes ago, Sidecarist said:

Regardless of this case I think Chucks point is how do we interact with LEO's to make sure that we are seen as the good guys and don't find ourselves in the same situation. For me its about clear communication and removing any threatening behavior from my side of the transaction. 

1. If possible have my ID out and ready.
2. Roll all the windows down if possible to make the interior of the car/passengers visable. (turn on the dome light if its dark).
3. If the officer asks me about being armed/weapons I will tell them. If not I keep my mouth shut.
4. If I do tell the officer that I am armed that's exactly how I say it. NOT "I have a Gun". Then I ASK the officer what they want me to do and do it.

Only once was I asked to step out of the car and disarm myself. It was done professionally.

I have sympathy for LEO's in general for the work they do and the danger it puts them in. They have a professional duty to protect the public and themselves. I respect that and do my level best to never make them think of me as any kind of threat. Most LEO's have treated me with similar respect in return.

We may never know the actual events of this case. It doesn't look good at first blush for any number of reasons. Its a sad thing that a man lost his life. I hope that it does get figured out.

 

 

Well though out and what I've recommended to friends and family whenever they've asked me what to do if stopped by a law enforcement officer. I hope the investigations and findings on the above incidents can be produced in a timely manner.

[dawgdoc]

I can't imagine disarming myself in front of a cop; it seems like your odds of getting shot would go up dramatically as you touch a weapon.  Videos like this seem to reinforce the idea to tell cops nothing unless required by law.

The one time that I was stopped, I answered yes to "Do you have any weapons?"  That went OK, but now I'm not sure how I would answer in the future.

[tn high viking]

2 hours ago, gregintenn said:

You're about to see some serious stuff go down in this country. No one has any respect for others, and what used to be a "your word against the police" case has been all but done away with since everyone has a phone with a camera on their person.

 

As authority clamps down ever harder, folks are getting quite wary of government and authority in general. 

 

Between this and the shooting in Baton Rouge, law enforcement aren't doing themselves any favors.

sadly, I think this is spot on

[DaveTN]

I can’t really comment on the shooting you posted about because once again we only have one side of the story.

However as I former cop I can respond on how to not to get killed on a traffic stop. Good points have already been made by others. I will tell the Officer I have a carry permit, and I am armed. I will ask how he wants to proceed. I will listen to him, follow his instructions and we will both go home alive.

I fully understand that Tennessee law does not require you to inform a Police Officer you are armed. I also fully understand a Police Officer doesn’t need to have the gun pointed at him in a threatening manner before he shoots you to death. Him thinking you are going for it can get you killed. Video or not; you are dead. Communication as in most things is the key.

Cops are killed every day in this country. Many are on so called “routine” traffic stops (there is no such thing) and “family fights”. Seeing your co-workers shot does something to you; I know that because I have through it. I have stood in the ER with two Officers and a perp shot and had crying nurses apologize to me because they had to try (and did) to save the scum bag that shot the Officers. It was a house the two Officers had been to any times. Only this time the guy opened fire. I decided that would never happen to me. Not on a domestic violence call and not on traffic stop. Pay attention, don’t do anything stupid, if you feel the need to display a gun for some reason or are going to reach in the area where a gun is; make sure the cop knows and agrees with what you are doing.

[DaveTN]

I will also add this…

Have all of you thought about how you would handle a shooting situation that goes down in seconds? You walk into an armed robbery or you walk into someone threatening to shoot someone else. What do you do? What do you say? What are you seeing? Who is the bad guy? Pretty much the same things the cops have to deal with when they roll in on some of these calls. Shots can start going in micro seconds.

Getting shot by the cops isn’t the only thing you have to worry about. You could get shot by another HCP holder that walks in on your situation.

[TomUT07]

My instructor for my carry class told me never to mention gun, firearm, weapon, etc.  He told us to always give the LEO your carry permit with all your other information.    At that point, the LEO should be able to interpret that as a sign your are carrying.  I have been pulled over once while carrying.  It was about 5 am, I was headed to work, it was still dark and I turned on the dome light, provided all paperwork initially, and placed my hands on the steering wheel where they remained.  He went back to his patrol car and soon I had two other police cars show up and had an officer standing at both the passenger and drivers side doors keeping a watchful eye of me, as well as the initial police officer.  

Obviously, most traffic stops, with or without those carrying firearms happen without anything coming of it, wish they all did.   This is just a terrible tragedy and will further fuel the tensions that are already on edge in this country.   Hate it for this man's family, hate it even for the police officer and will do my best to wait for all information before making my own personal judgement on the matter.  

Sure hope this is just about these individual police officers and not the law enforcement community as a whole.  Having said that, is this not what the left wants?  We can't take care of ourselves and they push for cradle to grave policies.  An overbearing government that knows what's best for us all more so than we do?  But at the same time, when this overbearing government actually happens to them directly, they raise hell all the while attacking us liberty minded self reliant.  Why do those on the left and of a certain racial 'movement' want to polticize this to divide us and conitnue to take away our rights as individuals to carry as well as other things.  Sorry, just some thoughts of some idiot in west Tennessee.....

All lives matter.  

Edited July 8, 2016 by TomUT07

[Jenny1234]

I have top-end audio/video recorders (with real time upload to the cloud) in my vehicles.  When I am pulled over I politely state that the entire interaction is being recorded and uploaded.  I then cooperate fully but never say more than I have to say.  I have on occasion refused to answer certain questions that I thought were off base.  Fortunately, I have never had any trouble and feel I have been treated fairly.  Having said this, I think it is entirely possible that a black man under the same circumstances may have a higher probability of being treated differently.   Any way you cut it we've got a problem that's not going to be fixed easily.

[TNWNGR]

12 minutes ago, Jenny1234 said:

I have top-end audio/video recorders (with real time upload to the cloud) in my vehicles.  When I am pulled over I politely state that the entire interaction is being recorded and uploaded.  I then cooperate fully but never say more than I have to say.  I have on occasion refused to answer certain questions that I thought were off base.  Fortunately, I have never had any trouble and feel I have been treated fairly.  Having said this, I think it is entirely possible that a black man under the same circumstances may have a higher probability of being treated differently.   Any way you cut it we've got a problem that's not going to be fixed easily.

I have no issue with any of the above and you by no means under obligation to submit to an investigative dialog with an officer during the course of a traffic stop. My only observation with all of the above is your kind of coming across as though you get stopped a lot. That might not be the case but if it is there something you can do to avoid the interaction before it happens?

 

[monkeylizard]

52 minutes ago, TomUT07 said:

 Why do those on the left and of a certain racial 'movement' want to polticize this to divide us and conitnue to take away our rights as individuals to carry as well as other things. 

That's the easiest question in the world to answer.

Money.

The Reverends Jackson and Sharpton have been capitalizing on it for decades. It's just new faces doing the same dance.

 

[ttocswob]

Quote

"...We had a busted tail light. And we had some weed in the car that’s about it."

Not a reason to get shot - but still....    From HotAir

[btq96r]

5 hours ago, DaveTN said:

I also fully understand a Police Officer doesn’t need to have the gun pointed at him in a threatening manner before he shoots you to death. Him thinking you are going for it can get you killed. Video or not; you are dead.

...and this is what I think needs to change.  It should take a clear sign of hostile intent to justify a police officer using lethal force in my mind. 

[Grand Torino]

Many years ago I used to always think if anyone knew what they are doing it was the Police. Today I'm not so sure. On the other hand they have to be among the most underpaid professions on the planet and are being targeted buy loonies and people making excuses for their own ineptitude to be decent human beings and abide by the law. Thank goodness we have a lot of fine folks in uniform for it's a job I could never do without getting into trouble.

I do hope if I ever get stopped by the police while armed I get one of the level headed ones.

[Jenny1234]

9 hours ago, TNWNGR said:

I have no issue with any of the above and you by no means under obligation to submit to an investigative dialog with an officer during the course of a traffic stop. My only observation with all of the above is your kind of coming across as though you get stopped a lot. That might not be the case but if it is there something you can do to avoid the interaction before it happens?

 

I suspect it's because I'm blonde and drive a red dodge viper.  Maybe I should dye my hair blue and swap the viper out for a VW beetle! 

[conn_air7]

It is quite interesting how the media knows exactly what to say to make people go insane. Here we are focusing on nothing but black shootings by cops, but what about the whites? How many marches have the whites started over whites being killed by cops? Statistically, you cannot argue that blacks are "targeted." In 2015, nearly twice as many whites were killed than blacks. Even after the population difference, the numbers still remain higher for whites.

I once knew a person who repeatedly said "statistics are not facts." For a long time I have agreed with this statement and I still do to this day.

My complaint? I wish the media would stop acting like the only people who are being killed by police are blacks. The only reason whites never make the news and minority races do is because we don't make as big of a deal out of it.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TNWNGR]

2 hours ago, Jenny1234 said:

I suspect it's because I'm blonde and drive a red dodge viper.  Maybe I should dye my hair blue and swap the viper out for a VW beetle! 

Nope, if you have the means to afford to operate a Dodge Viper on a daily basis then keep on enjoying it. But if just being blond girl with an expensive sports car is the only motivation behind the stops then I applaud you for the foresight in setting up the car recording system.   

[Chucktshoes]

Well, as many of y'all may have seen, a verdict was handed down the other day in this case. I did my best to stay away from the politics of it last time, but I want to state for the record that I am extremely upset at the outcome of this trial. I believe it to be yet another reminder that we have a legal system instead of a justice system. Philando Castille did not receive any justice in this matter, posthumous or otherwise.

That said, that's not the reason I am reviving this thread. I want to post Colion Noir's open letter on the subject. My hope is that as a name many of y'all are familiar with, and hopefully whose work and voice y'all value, his words may find some resonance where others may find resistance because of who they are  

 

Philando Castile Should Be Alive Today My Open Letter 

"What the ####! What the ####! What the ####!”. We were four black teens in a ####ty station wagon looking for a place to play basketball until we realized we were lost. All I can hear is my best friend in the backseat yelling over and over again, “What the ####! What the ####! What the ####!” and the cop outside of the station wagon with his gun pointed directly at me yelling, “Don’t ####ing move, roll the window down, don’t ####ing move!"

We pulled up next to a parked cop car to ask him for directions. When we realized there was no one in the car, we reversed to leave, but before my friend could put the vehicle in drive, a cop jumps out of a van next to the police car with his gun pointed right at me. To this day I still feel a little guilty about the relief I felt when the cop made his way from my side to the driver side of the car and pointed the gun inches away from my friends head instead of mine.  

My friend's eyes were closed, and his hands were straight up. I could see the gun inches from his temple.  My friend rambled, "we're lost, we're lost, directions, directions, we just wanted directions." My friend in the back seat was still yelling. I just stared at the gun waiting for my life to change forever.

Eventually, everything was sorted out, but the whole ordeal messed me up. We were good kids who never got in any trouble. All we wanted to do was ask for directions.  I couldn’t understand why the cop felt so threatened by us. I remember asking myself, If we were four white teens would he have acted the same way? I don’t know, but the fact that I have to ask that question at such an age should tell you something.

I despise race baiting. Race baiting cheapens and undermines every legitimate cry of racial injustice and breeds a sense of apathy in people who would otherwise be sympathetic to such cries but feel the discussion of race is a zero-sum game they can never win.

However, there is also a problem with some people in this country dismissing racism wholesale when it isn't overt racial slurs or crosses burning on front lawns. Covert racism is a real thing and is very dangerous. Covert racism works the same way anti-gunners use coded language to push gun control. They say common sense gun measures, but we know what they really mean. We gun advocates spend our time trying to prove to the people that they don't just want background checks they want to ban guns.  The problem is, they don't come right out and say,"give me all your guns"  so no one believes us, but we know the effects are incredibly real.  That's what covert racism is and does.

In The case of officer Jeronimo Yanez, I don’t feel he woke up that day wanting to shoot a black person. However, I keep asking myself, would he have done the same thing if Philando were white?  As I put on my Monday morning quarterback Jersey, it is my opinion that  Philando Castile should be alive today. I believe there was a better way to handle the initial stop. If he suspected Philando was a suspect in a robbery, there were ways to conduct that stop in a way that would have completely avoided the shooting altogether, but Yanez neglected to do so.

Beyond that point, things get a little fuzzy for me. Other than Yanez's testimony, there is nothing I read about the trial or any newly revealed facts to suggest that Philando was going for his gun. However, I don’t know what Yanez saw that made him think Philando was going for the gun, I wasn’t there, and I only have his words to go by. Sadly,  Philando isn't here to tell us other than his last dying statement of, “I wasn’t reaching for it”.

Personally, I feel because Yanez pulled Philando over under 
 The suspicion that he was a robbery suspect coupled with the presence of a gun,  it put Yanez in a heightened state. I feel he lost control of his wits and overreacted. This now brings me to the question of race. Do I think Yanez felt threatened by the fact that Philando was black? It's very possible Yanez was indifferent about Philando's race. However, because of the negative stereotype reinforced in the media about black men and guns, it wouldn't completely surprise me if Yanez felt more threatened by Philando because he was black. This is the same negative stereotype that I've been trying to combat for years now. 

Legally, I'm left asking myself, was Yanez failing to conduct a proper felony stop reckless or negligent enough to warrant a Second Degree Manslaughter conviction? As a lawyer, I'm hard pressed to think so. But the young black male in me says hell yes. Admittedly, I don’t have all the facts the jury had; I didn’t hear the testimony the jury heard. Maybe after hearing his testimony they believe Yanez honestly felt his life was in danger and justifiably so. However, I have to be honest and say, he shouldn’t be able to just walk away freely without legal consequence I just don't know what that consequence should be.

I so badly wanted to keep race out of this.  There are so many professional race baiters who thrive on and become rich from increasing the racial divide in this country. Because of this racial opportunism, it makes it hard to call out the more insidious elements of racism in this country vs. the isolated incidences where race doesn't play a factor. Then again, considering other examples where "race" was legitimately a factor In previous shootings,  I think it would be irresponsible not to consider race as a possible motive in this shooting. 

All that being said, Philando Should be alive today. In my eyes, Yanez screwed up big time. I don’t feel he was out to take a black life that day, but it doesn’t matter because his actions cost Phliando his life.  My legal mind can see why they couldn’t get to Manslaughter in the Second Degree based solely on the facts at hand, but Yanez walking away from this case a free and clear man is just wrong. 
------------

[E4 No More]

21 minutes ago, Chucktshoes said:

Well, as many of y'all may have seen, a verdict was handed down the other day in this case. I did my best to stay away from the politics of it last time, but I want to state for the record that I am extremely upset at the outcome of this trial. I believe it to be yet another reminder that we have a legal system instead of a justice system. Philando Castille did not receive any justice in this matter, posthumous or otherwise.

That said, that's not the reason I am reviving this thread. I want to post Colion Noir's open letter on the subject. My hope is that as a name many of y'all are familiar with, and hopefully whose work and voice y'all value, his words may find some resonance where others may find resistance because of who they are  

 

 

 

Can you name just one country that has a justice system rather than a legal system?

[Erik88]

The sad thing is that being courteous and letting the officer know he was armed probably cost him his life.