FBI considered alerts on buyers of multiple guns, but was scrapped over legal concerns

[The Legion]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/07/01/fbi-considered-alerts-on-buyers-multiple-guns-but-was-scrapped-over-legal-concerns.html?intcmp=hpbt2

Published July 01, 2016

The Wall Street Journal

The Federal Bureau of Investigation considered creating an alert system seven years ago to tip off agents to multiple gun purchases like those made by the Orlando, Fla., nightclub gunman, but abandoned the idea over legal concerns, according to multiple officials.

Law enforcement officials who study mass shooters say that multiple firearm purchases can be a key indicator that a troubled individual is taking concrete steps toward violence, much like Orlando shooter Omar Mateen, who bought a handgun and a rifle in the days before he killed 49 people.

The Orlando attack has prompted calls for changes in surveillance and gun control laws, but it isn’t clear any of them would have flagged the gunman.

Separately, FBI and Justice Department officials are evaluating if it would be legal or practical to create an alert system to warn investigators when gun purchases are made by people who, like Mateen, were once investigated for terrorism, according to officials familiar with the discussions.

An internal FBI document and interviews with current and former law enforcement officials show that authorities debated the prospect of flagging buyers of multiple guns as far back as 2009 and 2010, when a series of high-profile mass shootings raised questions about better ways to track potential attackers.

Agency officials set out to see if their data on background checks could help prevent shootings, according to the internal FBI memo reviewed by The Wall Street Journal. The memo, written for an intelligence unit in the FBI in 2010, cited “the rise of the recent lone gunmen such as the Holocaust Museum shooter; the Pittsburgh fitness center shooter; and the Fort Hood shooting.’’

The memo said that officials “were asked to review the National Instant Criminal Background Check System information to determine if any of the sharable information would be of value to the law enforcement or intelligence communities.’’ FBI analysts “also conducted additional research on individuals who attempted multiple purchases in the same month,’’ the memo said.

Starting in 2009 and continuing into the following year, FBI officials also began an experimental notification system for people who were prohibited from buying guns but made multiple attempts to buy them anyway. That pilot program was deemed so successful that it is now a national program, generating about 200 investigative leads a year, according to officials.

That notification system is one of what FBI officials call their “tripwires,’’ alerts designed to notify agents of activity that may suggest ongoing or planned terrorism or crimes. Other tripwires include notifications when an non-traditional customer buys chemicals that can be used to build bombs.

In 2010, FBI officials discussed creating a notification system for people who legally purchased more than one weapon in a short period of time, officials said. That system, if adopted, could have alerted them to the Orlando gunman’s purchase of a rifle and a handgun in the week before the massacre, among the many multiple purchases by other people during that week.

But the idea of a multiple-purchase alert system was discarded on legal grounds, officials said. The law that created federal gun background checks specifically barred officials from retaining that data, in order to prevent the government from creating a registry of gun owners. FBI officials concluded that even a subset of that data, involving those who made multiple purchases in a short period, would constitute a kind of gun registry.

The Orlando shooting hasn’t changed FBI leaders’ minds about the legality of creating a multiple-purchase alert system, officials said, but they are looking at alerts for gun purchases by people no longer on a terrorism watch list.

[Grand Torino]

I'll bet they are considering even more disgusting stuff than that. It just hasn't been leaked yet.

[Oh Shoot]

Well, multiple handguns within 5 biz days from same FFL is still flagged and retained though. Never have known how an FFL would necessarily know if the purchases weren't at the same time though.

Also, same with semi-auto rifles bigger than .22 in the southern border states.

- OS

Edited July 1, 2016 by Oh Shoot

[nightrunner]

2 hours ago, Oh Shoot said:

Well, multiple handguns within 5 biz days from same FFL is still flagged and retained though. Never have known how an FFL would necessarily know if the purchases weren't at the same time though.

Also, same with semi-auto rifles bigger than .22 in the southern border states.

- OS

I thought that was the case with the multiple guns from same FFL. Is it just handguns? I always thought it was long guns too.

 

Either way, it's about the same as withdrawing $10k+ cash at one time, not illegal but you get red flagged and likely investigated. 

 

It it sure doesn't feel like a free country anymore...

[Oh Shoot]

26 minutes ago, nightrunner said:

I thought that was the case with the multiple guns from same FFL. Is it just handguns? I always thought it was long guns too.

 

Either way, it's about the same as withdrawing $10k+ cash at one time, not illegal but you get red flagged and likely investigated. 

 

It it sure doesn't feel like a free country anymore...

Multiple handguns (only) is nationwide, triggers form 3310.4. Submitted to ATF and local CLEO.

Multiple semi-auto rifles (detachable magazine, caliber > .22) is only in the 4 southern border states (so far), triggers form 3310.12. Submitted to ATF National Tracing Center.

These are the only two reports required beyond the 4473 itself. So far.

- OS

Edited July 2, 2016 by Oh Shoot

[Smith]

Multiple handguns (only) is nationwide, triggers form 3310.4. Submitted to ATF and local CLEO.

Multiple semi-auto rifles (detachable magazine, caliber > .22) is only in the 4 southern border states (so far), triggers form 3310.12. Submitted to ATF National Tracing Center.

These are the only two reports required beyond the 4473 itself. So far.

- OS

I know when I was working at a gun store a few years ago we got a memo to report multiple gun sales on handguns and rifles. Don't recall the number but I read the ATF notice. They then sent several updates regarding the number of items that triggered a report on each. Usually dropping the number. I think some of them where request beyond law requirements, but you got the idea it was in the stores best invest if they ever got audited. Just a vague FYI.

[Oh Shoot]

1 hour ago, Smith said:

I know when I was working at a gun store a few years ago we got a memo to report multiple gun sales on handguns and rifles. Don't recall the number but I read the ATF notice. They then sent several updates regarding the number of items that triggered a report on each. Usually dropping the number. I think some of them where request beyond law requirements, but you got the idea it was in the stores best invest if they ever got audited. Just a vague FYI.

Never seen that reported anywhere else, ever, so dunno what to think of it.

Report it how? Call up your local field agent and narc on them or what?

- OS

[Smith]

Never seen that reported anywhere else, ever, so dunno what to think of it.

Report it how? Call up your local field agent and narc on them or what?

- OS

You think just what you think before except ad first hand experience. You had heard it before because you stated nearly the same thing.

Evidently the memos we got were the same as the "border states". At least from reading the article they sound nearly identical.

This describes what I'm referencing.

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2014/06/atf_backs_down_on_gun_sale_reports.html

My guess is, as the article alludes, was not limited to just border states but many ffls in other (non disclosed in the article) states. The time frame is pretty much the same.

Point is, that the ATF may not entirely follow the rule of law as you try to imply. No different than how the IRS uses Gestapo tactics.

[Rightwinger]

I can confirm Smith's statement, I was at the same store.  The FFL had to submit multiple gun sales.  I know my name was submitted....sigh.

[Oh Shoot]

3 minutes ago, Rightwinger said:

I can confirm Smith's statement, I was at the same store.  The FFL had to submit multiple gun sales.  I know my name was submitted....sigh.

 

For all guns?  Was there a secret form for that? Did you call someone? Or what?

- OS

Edited July 2, 2016 by Oh Shoot

[Rightwinger]

Multiple hand gun sales in a week.  Can't recall if it was long guns at that time.  Can't recall the form number as I didn't do that part for the FFL.  They were submitted by mail as I recall.

Edited July 2, 2016 by Rightwinger

[Oh Shoot]

32 minutes ago, Rightwinger said:

Multiple hand gun sales in a week. ...

That has been in effect since the FFL was created in 1968, for all FFL holders, not the issue.

- OS

 

Edited July 2, 2016 by Oh Shoot

[Smith]

That has been in effect for all FFLs for many many years,  Brady Bill I believe, not the issue.

- OS

 

One of the memos added long guns and then a separate memo dropped the numbers/frequency from what was norm. The last memo simply stated total "guns" both long and hand in a week. The ffl handled his books electronically, that generated reports on the proper ATF form and they were mailed weekly IIRC. We did not handle that part but I was familiar with the process.

Again this is from memory of several years ago. Not sure why it's that important other than to make the simple point that, like Fast and Furious, the ATF doesn't necessarily go by the rule of law but often operate on agenda of the leadership.

[Wingshooter]

Maybe explains all the black suvs following me around 

 

[bersaguy]

9 hours ago, Wingshooter said:

Maybe explains all the black suvs following me around 

 

They are also driving white SUVS with Black wheels and heavy smoked windows. Saw two of them pull up at Gallatin PD last week and 8 suits got out and went in. I asked a police buddy if that was TBI and he said nope FBI...............

[Hershmeister]

So there actually was one thing that the .gov did not do during the obama administration because it was unconstitutional?

Color me shocked

[Oh Shoot]

15 hours ago, Smith said:

One of the memos added long guns and then a separate memo dropped the numbers/frequency from what was norm. The last memo simply stated total "guns" both long and hand in a week. The ffl handled his books electronically, that generated reports on the proper ATF form and they were mailed weekly IIRC. We did not handle that part but I was familiar with the process.

Again this is from memory of several years ago. Not sure why it's that important other than to make the simple point that, like Fast and Furious, the ATF doesn't necessarily go by the rule of law but often operate on agenda of the leadership.

All very interesting to be sure, and it would be doubly interesting if the FFL kept those memos. Again, it's unclear just what form his software could/would have generated but whatever it was, then he should still have it, and certainly at least now that the courts have decided that it is only authorized to be done only with certain types of rifles, and only in four states, he should notify the people on which the reports were generated, as they may well have individual or class action legal actions at their disposal.

- OS