My ideas on protecting the 2nd Amendment

[Pete123]

Most likely, I will regret posting this.  Many will disagree.  We'll have people say this will never work.  Nonetheless, here is what I'm working on to protect us, which is to change the conversation.

I will try hard not to engage.  Every time I have to apologize for being a dickhead on TGO it is around some kind of political issue.

Demographics are not working in our favor.  The gun control argument works very well with the demographic the will soon out grow us.

I posted the following in response to this article:

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/overhauling-mental-health-care-silver-bullet-reducing-gun/story?id=40193010

Note my approach, which is trying to change the conversation.  If the issue is gun violence, then let's talk about how to reduce it.  This was not written for us TGO types.  This was written for the folks up north, in Chicago and in California.  I will polish this and once it is really good, I'll send it as a letter to the editor to newspapers in the areas just mentioned.

I will say that I'm open to comments on unintended consequences.

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The journalist that wrote this article infers that the problem isn't mental health, but rather guns. He/she was dishonest as the comments by the experts in this article don't support that. If you look at what is said by the experts, they make one point, that mental health issues are not strongly associated with gun violence. Further, they state that mental health issues are not associated with violence.

 

I take issue with politicians claiming they want to stop gun violence when their actions show that they use this topic for political gain. They view this topic as a way to rally the Democrat faithful and put little to no effort into solving the problem.

 

The Republicans do same thing on different topics. Politicians exhibit this behavior because we reinforce them when they do it. We need to stop buying it. Notice that the gun expert didn't refer to guns when he spoke about violence. He spoke about the real issue, which is violence.

 

Here is an example to make my point. First, these mass shootings are absolutely terrible - no doubt about it. They are also statistically insignificant relative to gun violence in the US. Far and away, most gun violence in the US is in the inner city.

 

A young inner city man was killed by gun violence in my city recently. The police and inner city activists made a really good point, which targeted the true issue, which is violence. The point they made was that action was needed to get into the inner city and help youth understand that the rap music they listen to is a form of art, not a form of how the real world is or should be.

 

When is the last time you heard a politician talking about that?

 

If the opposing sides on the issue of gun control would lay that aside and collaborate on how to reduce both gun deaths and violence, we may really be able to make a difference. Here are focus areas I would like to see:

 

·      Marketing and safety campaigns around homes with children on keeping guns out of reach of the young ones and out of the hands of teens when adult supervision is not available.

·      Additional focus on reduced bullying and awareness of troubled teens. Inner city campaigns and education around violence not being the answer as well as teaching conflict resolution, etc...

·      Lay aside the gun control fight and look for common ground between the two sides to collaborate on reducing accidents and violence connected to guns.

 

 

[i1afli]

A lot of good points...I can't say that I disagree with any of them, but they will fall on deaf ears.  The politicians just want our guns, they aren't concerned about inner city crime.

[Sidecarist]

I'll agree with you very nearly 100%... However as a father of 2 millenials I have learned that kids in public school are being socialized in a way that takes away personal responsibility and directs blame at things rather than people. 

As they have both gotten older and had to face reality in the workplace and life in general I hear them say more and more that I was/am right but it's still unfair... Much that I tried to teach them is lost or buried. Time will tell if they can grasp that there are winner's and loser's in life and the thing that usually makes the difference is personal responsibility.

Life is not fair, bad people exist, bad things happen, etc. Things don't make people bad, guns, coal power plants, V8 engines, religion... the list is endless.

Regardless it is easier for them to say guns are bad, than to say a bad person used a gun. This is a blind spot for many people and some simply will not open their minds...

I applaud your efforts and agree that the conversation needs to change the trick is to get them to listen in the first place. 

[Omega]

The problem is, as soon as you redirect counter to their beliefs they shut you out.  I don't know how they come to some of the conclusions they do but somehow it makes sense to them.  Reality just needs to happen to them, personally,  because as long as someone else is the victim then it's the gun's fault. Watch how quickly they want to learn to protect themselves when they become victims!  

[peejman]

Sounds pretty good to me. I'd remove the references to political parties and only say politicians.  Using the party names will immediately cause many to take sides without considering anything you've said.  

I'd also remove the word "rap". That's gonna cause many to jump on the racism bandwagon. 

[Pete123]

Good input gentlemen.  Also, believe me when I tell you that referring to violence related rap as an art form was hard to do. 

[Sidecarist]

After some thought. I'll add these comments. If possible remove any labels such as republican/democrat etc. The media and many experts are doing a good job of making this an "us against them" argument "gun owners against peaceful people" when speaking to non gun owners about this the problem is making the issue personal to them, yet most people never experience real violence in their lifetimes. The feeling of helplessness that is communicated in the press by anti gun writers works because no one wants to be a "victim" of gun violence. No one wants to be victimized by a thing called a gun. It's easy for uninformed people to be against a heartless "thing" rather than admit that they could become a victim of someone violently crazy. Its not about mental health, its about a world full of victims that are happy being placid and depending on others for protection thinking if only they can take away the thing that makes it easy for someone to be violent. They miss the point that the "thing" (gun) is fairly unimportant. Violence it the important issue and the way to prevent most violence is to be an unattractive target. I'm a big guy and I almost never feel intimidated/threatened by anyone. My wife has had many experiences of feeling unsafe around others.

No one wants to take guns away from the sheep dogs (police), or the attack dogs (military). They only want to take them away from the people that are unknown to them. People fear the unknown, how do we get them to take responsibility for themselves? They fear those that are tougher and stronger, or even just willing to take responsibility and be the first line of personal defense for themselves. How do we get them to want to be their own sheepdog?

Another important fact that is nearly always left out is that gun owners are as a rule more law abiding than average. This is a statistical fact that is easily proven, but it doesn't fit the narrative. I have a friend that when he learned that I am a gun owner/collector admitted he wasn't sure what to think. Luckily he was open minded enough to discuss it and in the end admitted that his perception of guns was the problem, not his perception of me. He had good experiences with me that were provable, and no bad experiences with guns, only a perception from the media...

I like this thread because we ALL need to work to change public perceptions away from THINGS being bad, to sometimes people do bad things... In short gun violence is about violence, not guns...

Sorry for the long post.

 

[Caster]

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Edited June 29, 2016 by Caster

[Hershmeister]

Its quite simple really to deal wth antis:

The SCOTUS incorporated the second amendment in the case McDonald vs City of Chicago. The case opinion lays out the full reasoning. Make them read it. If they refuse to do so, it demonstrates at best their willful ignorance and at worst their contempt for rule of law and the factual history of the second amendment.

[Randall53]

40 minutes ago, Hershmeister said:

Its quite simple really to deal wth antis:

The SCOTUS incorporated the second amendment in the case McDonald vs City of Chicago. The case opinion lays out the full reasoning. Make them read it. If they refuse to do so, it demonstrates at best their willful ignorance and at worst their contempt for rule of law and the factual history of the second amendment.

A left leaning SCOTUS would/will reverse those decisions It may take them a little time, but they WILL get it done if it goes that way.

[Hershmeister]

A left leaning SCOTUS would/will reverse those decisions It may take them a little time, but they WILL get it done if it goes that way.

It would be impossible to "unincorporate" the 2a

Now the mcdonald case is not perfection - it did not address a lot of future issues such as mag bans, specific weapon bans (ie "assault weapon bans), etc

The scotus generally only gets involved (grants cert) when lower courts disagree on similar rulings

So yes, a left leaning court always will suck but its gonna be damn hard to undo Mcdonald. Just look at Roe v Wade asan example - the recent ruling made nearly any restrictions against abortion unconstitutional.

Lets hope the scotus stays consistent. But i doubt it.. justice thomas's dissent hit the nail

[300winmag]

Basically you have the right to keep an ordinary handgun on your property for self defense.  Mags over 10 rounds, modern sporting weapons, carry laws will probably just be left up to individual states. 

[Pete123]

I'm trying to think about this in strategic terms.  We know that demographics are turning against us.  Just like an army realizing that the other side has a new weapon and immediately begins on a new strategy, we need to do the same.

What has worked so far likely won't work with changing demographics.

So, the question becomes, what to do.  I think my idea is a good idea worth testing.  Maybe it will help and maybe it will flop.  Maybe it will work with changes, and I really appreciate the input on improving the post I wrote.  I definitely think getting Dems and Republicans out of there is smart.  There were other good suggestions as well.

I want to challenge everyone to suggest ideas. The key to get folks to share ideas is helpful feedback, like there has been on this thread, and non acceptance of verbiage like we see on some of the political threads.  

The arguments for gun control are built on a house of cards with lies as the base.  How can we take advantage of that?

[Oh Shoot]

22 minutes ago, Pete123 said:

....

The arguments for gun control are built on a house of cards with lies as the base.  How can we take advantage of that?

If you can come up with any argument that hasn't already been presented, I'd be all ears.

But it's always gonna be an emotional argument as much as a logical one, and as always, H.L. Mencken had it pegged.

- OS

[Sidecarist]

It is an emotional issue for sure. I have always attacked it with logic, but recently have become more aware of the emotion behind it. I see it more clearly as an argument about blaming  "bad things" rather than "bad people". I think this is why violence like we are seeing in Chicago, Baltimore, and others is largely ignored, or blamed on drugs, guns, race, religion, etc. It's the belief in sensitivity to others feelings that makes some people so resistant to logic. This thought process is pervasive now. Participation trophies, micro aggressions, assault by thought.

If you can come up with a way to drill through this emotional armor, then there is a chance...