.380 or 9mm pocket rocket

[TNMP40]

If I got shot by any calabar gun I would back off if I could.  Hit in a organ it really does not matter what the calabar is.

[JAB]

On 6/20/2016 at 10:28 PM, Sidecarist said:

Another consideration is that ballistic performance is reduced in these very short barrels...

Keep in mind, however, that much of the 'newer' .380 self defense ammo was developed just in the last decade or so and was developed with the P3AT as the test platform.  In other words, such ammo was designed in response to the .380 pocket gun surge that was created by the P3AT (heck, it was popular enough that Ruger copied it) and in some cases virtually built from the ground up to work in the smallest .380 semiauto out there.  I think that was a unique case because .380 wasn't all that popular in this country, before, so there wasn't a whole lot of choice before ammo companies responded to the then new demand.  In some ways, it caused ammo companies that wanted a portion of the profits from selling .380 ammo to reinvent the wheel where .380 self defense bullets and loads were concerned.  Full disclosure, though, I must admit I still mostly carry Hydra Shok in mine - it doesn't expand as well as some others in testing but seems to give some expansion and really good penetration plus when I first started carrying the P3AT it was about all I could find so it has been thoroughly function tested in mine.

The situation is different with 9mm, however.  There are already plenty of choices for SD ammo in 9mm on the market.  There are even some that are supposed to be good for 'short barreled' pistols.  My guess would be, however, that when such ammo was developed 'short barrel' meant a pistol that wasn't quite as large as a duty pistol, not micro 9 pocket pistols.  Therefore, again - just guessing - I would imagine that none of those loads and bullets have been developed 'from the ground up' specifically with a micro 9 as the test platform and really - unlike .380 before the pocket .380 craze - as there is no dearth of 9mm SD ammo to choose from I would be surprised if ammo manufacturers expend the R&D time and money to do so in any, big way.

Does this mean that a pocket 9 wouldn't still be more powerful than a pocket .380?  Probably not - but due to bullets and loads having been designed specifically for micro .380 pistols I do believe that the 'end user' performance gap is probably a lot more narrow than one might think.

Another factor is power for size.  Honestly, I still believe that .380 is kind of pushing the reliability envelope in such small, lightweight guns, not to mention shootability.  Heck, there is a reason I usually prefer my S&W 642 over the P3AT for pocket carry.  Personally, I just don't know that I could truly trust an itty-bitty 9mm or my ability to not 'limp wrist' the little beastie under the kind of stress that fighting for my life would generate.

[peejman]

What he said. My P3AT runs with Gold Dots. The LCP runs with PMC, and I chose them for exactly the same reason....  modest if somewhat unreliable expansion, but consistent penetration. Seems the .380 just doesn't have enough oomph to both expand significantly and penetrate reasonably. 

Recoil in the Shield 9 is quite manageable. Better than the .380's, though I'd presume that's mostly because of the better grip. The only "micro" 9 I've shot was a Kahr, and it was a handful. 

[mikegideon]

On 6/21/2016 at 2:35 PM, monkeylizard said:

Bond Arms makes a pocket .357. Just 2 shots though.

That's all you need before your hand completely stops working. Good plan

[Patton]

58 minutes ago, mikegideon said:

That's all you need before your hand completely stops working. Good plan

It's heavy enough that it really isn't all that bad. My 45 Win Mag derringer with bear loads is even manageable. 

[mikegideon]

5 hours ago, Patton said:

It's heavy enough that it really isn't all that bad. My 45 Win Mag derringer with bear loads is even manageable. 

I hauled up a video on that thing. It looks pretty beefy. I had a friend shoot 357's out of a .38 derringer one night, and the hammer punched a hole in his hand.

[Proscene]

P238 and P938, I own both but for the insignificant increase in size, I find myself carrying the P338 all the time. It is a reliable powerful weapon and easily hidden.

[monkeylizard]

On 6/20/2016 at 9:15 PM, mikegideon said:

The difference in power between the two is significant. If you want minimum penetration as specified by the FBI, it ain't gonna happen with a .380. I carry .380 some, though. Just depends on what I'm wearing and where I'm going.

The facts don't support that. 8 out of 18 tested by LG met or exceeded FBI penetration guidelines. Gold Dots didn't quite reach the min. depth, but they were remarkably consistent in penetration and had excellent expansion, so you might be able to say that 9 out of 18 are capable. Ammo selection in a .380 becomes much more critical than in larger calibers because it's borderline for being acceptable. With the right gun and right ammo, it's perfectly capable.

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#380ACP

Edited July 3, 2016 by monkeylizard

[mikegideon]

32 minutes ago, monkeylizard said:

The facts don't support that. 8 out of 18 tested by LG met or exceeded FBI penetration guidelines. Gold Dots didn't quite reach the min. depth, but they were remarkably consistent in penetration and had excellent expansion, so you might be able to say that 9 out of 18 are capable. Ammo selection in a .380 becomes much more critical than in larger calibers because it's borderline for being acceptable. With the right gun and right ammo, it's perfectly capable.

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#380ACP

In general, the ones with good expansion barely make it. But it's ok. I carry it too sometimes.

[bud]

.

Edited July 18, 2016 by bud

[2.ooohhh]

25 minutes ago, bud said:

On the rare occasion I'm forced to roll with the lcp, I just load ball ammo. My thinking is that I want penetration, so i don't want the speed decrease the projectile would experience when it's expanding. What's yalls thoughts on balls vs hp ammo when fired from a super short .380 barrel  such as ruger lcp?

There have been several advances in bullet design in the last few decades. Several are far better in a defensive situation than ball ammo. I use the Lehigh XP after through testing in my p238 I'm confident that they will function should I need them. If they didn't function in my gun I'd likely pick one of the available Hornady xtp loadings I could find locally.

 

Since I'm somewhat OCD I'd love to take time to test my own ammo but since there are guy's like TNoutdoors9 and ShootingTheBull410 to do it for me I just watch their videos and then verify function in my own weapons.  

I believe this is a truly innovative projectile design for micro pistols chambered in .380, that said it doesn't seem to lend itself to other calibers as well since over penetration is a concern at higher velocities.

 

[RagTop454]

When they first came out I bought a 238 for it's small size compared to the P229 I usually carried.  Then, after SIG solved their initial reliability issues, I bought a 938 to have a 9mm in nearly as small a package with the 9's ballistics.  I nearly sold the 229, but have found that as much as I've tried, I still shoot better with a larger frame and adapted to concealing and carrying the larger 229 a majority of the time.  I've since moved to Glocks and now have either a 26 or 19 on me all the time, but still hang on to the 938 and 238 just in case I find a need for a smaller package.

[gunslinger_Griff]

Interesting dialogue....

 

technicslly more people die from 22s than any other caliber.....but I'd never carry one..... And I'd rather not get hit with anything (thank you).... but that said I think I'd rather carry a J frame Smithy with +Ps than a 380.... I'd never feel under gunned with a 9 (and I carry a 45 daily) but the 9 has always been my minimum.... There have been so many ballistics advances that there's a decent round in every caliber.... but I'm not sure there's the R&D invested in the 380 and there isn't enough energy in target for me to feel comfortable.... In a high stress situation, few of us are going to be accurate.....you can afford to be less accurate when you're putting more energy from your bullet on target...  Would I carry a 380 if that's all I could conceal? Absolutely....but I'd probably try to get away with that 9...

That said, I'd rather confront a poorly trained bad guy with a 9 that a strong shooter with a 380.... James Bond did OK with the the 380!

 

[Cherokee Slim]

On June 20, 2016 at 10:15 PM, mikegideon said:

The difference in power between the two is significant. If you want minimum penetration as specified by the FBI, it ain't gonna happen with a .380. I carry .380 some, though. Just depends on what I'm wearing and where I'm going.

I agree.  I changed out my .380's when the smaller 9mm's came out.  Both daughters went from LCP's to LC9's.  Wife went to the DB9 which has never jammed of failed in any way except limp wrist.  I only carry a .45 unless I really, really have to conceal, then it's the DB9.

Cherokee Slim

[combatmed04]

On 6/21/2016 at 5:02 AM, 1gewehr said:

It's difficult to find a better carry .380 than the little Keltec P3AT and its copies.  Get a pocket holster and it can be with you no matter what you wear (except a Speedo :-(  ).

I carried an LCP for years at my old job. It was just right for pocket carry, and I started having to tuck my shirt in, so my G19 wasn't an option any more. Plus the management had a no firearms policy, so I had to be careful about it. My manager was cool with it, he wanted me to carry, knowing my background. He was a good guy, so if I ever got caught with it, I would have said it was on me. I had no qualms about the weapon being able to handle the job if it ever came to that.

I shot coke cans at 20 yards with it at Ok Corral just for a joke one day and I could hit 4/6, which was pretty impressive considering the barrel length and sights. I know better shooters than me could do better.

That said, I expect to empty the magazine if I ever need to use it.

 

 

[Kevo]

I assume you have 2 pockets. Get both. Shoot both. Carry both. I personally prefer as light as possible in my pocket. 

[TN_Nash_CC]

Great advice guys !

I ended up initially purchasing a Sig P238 nitron... very nice little gun, fits my hands perfectly... then about two weeks ago I picked up a Kimber Micro 9.... Now kinda looking at that new M&P Shield .45.....

I'm afraid I've contracted and addicition... LOL...

[TNMP40]

On 6/20/2016 at 8:29 PM, TN_Nash_CC said:

Hello all,

I've recently purchased a Sig P238 and absolutely love it.... it's a fantastic little gun. Still have a Walther CCP bit needed something I could carry every day that was a bit more discrete for the office.

My delima is.... I'm really looking hard at also picking up a new Sig P938 since it's a 9mm in very close to the same size as the P238...

Whichever Sig I choose for EDC I want to make sure it has the stopping power to end any possible situation. I've read a multitude of opinions on .380 being too weak.... to others saying... it's fine for stopping an aggressor. ...

Really wanted to pose this question to those that have more knowledge and experience than I do in this field.

Stay with the P238 or move on up to the P938....??

Thanks guys !

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 I have a P938 with a Crimson Trace Laser and I will tell you my experiences with that gun.  Right now it is back at Sig.  I prefer my M&P Shield.  Send me a PM

Edited August 27, 2016 by TNMP40

[tnhawk]

My P938 has been reliable and easy to carry during the two years I've had it.  I still have an LCP but 9mm is cheaper to practice as well as more powerful.

[espacef1fan]

I found that the 938 has a longer grip(front to back) that detracted from the small niftiness of it. The 938 is a peach to shoot though

[TNMP40]

Improve stopping power..... go to the range and hit the target in the right place!~  Doesn't matter if you are shooting.380 or 9mm !!!!

 

 

[graycrait]

For me it is a Keltec P32 .32ACP as the most practical form of concealed carry on my person around town.  If I want to go .2 of an ounce heavier:  

 

 

Edited September 24, 2016 by graycrait