HCP Class Information

[Guest bluecanary25]

This is c&p from legislative email......

Only keeping the body of text:

Good afternoon,

We have been contacted by numerous constituents complaining of the following:

"The Tennessee Department of Safety (TDOS) is currently sending letters to all firearms instructors requiring them to complete and return a copy of a Handgun Safety School Class Roster within 24 hours of the completion of a handgun permit certification class, "effective immediately." This new roster requires a student to provide information concerning the name of the firearm owner, the name of the student using the firearm, as well as the make, model, and serial number of firearms used. Currently, there are no statutes that authorize the TDOS to collect or require this information. Simply put, this is a backdoor, de facto gun registration scheme! Remember, registration is the first step to potential firearms confiscations."

We have contacted the Dept. of Safety and Lisa Knight, the Director of the Handgun Permit Department has assured us they will be revising the form in question to address the concerns many constituents are having. Some of the detailed information such as serial number will be omitted to better protect the privacy of handgun carriers.

Please see the following statement from Lisa Knight, to be followed by a formal statement:

"We are removing the serial # off the form as well as the part of the form that ask who owned the gun. The roster will still be required to show the students name, signature, TN Driver license number, test scores, certificate number and the date the class was completed. This is in part due to an audit finding."

Lisa Knight

Department of Safety

Handgun Unit

1150 Foster Ave.

Nashville TN 37210

Phone: (615) 251-5330

Fax: (615) 532-3056

Lisa.Knight@state.tn.us

**************

Hope this is helpful.

Edited December 18, 2008 by bluecanary25

[DavidD]

Here is the response I recieved back from my Rep, Susan Lynn:

Dear Friends,

The NRA has issued an alert about the Tennessee Department Safety and gun registration.

I called the Department of Safety this morning to find out more about this. I have received a reply and sent the reply to the NRA for their comments.

Lisa Knight, assistant director of Handgun Carry Permits at the TN Department of Safety stated that her office is in the process of issuing retraction letters regarding the requirement of serial numbers from carry permit instructors in the rosters that are required from each school. TDOS is aware that the requirement of serial numbers could be construed as an attempt to create a handgun registry which, while not the department's intent, is nonetheless unacceptable under the law. So they are communicating their intentions not to require serial numbers.

School rosters are allowable under the TDOS' Rules and Regulations (1340-2-3-.03G) and require the student's name, and the make and model of the weapon with which they trained (which often is the school's weapon, as many schools will not allow a first-time student to train with their own weapon). The caliber is not required information. Make and model of a student's training weapon is information that has always been required on certificates, so it is not newly required information.

The roster, which was created in response to a Department audit finding, is used to verify certificates that are turned in after the class. TDOS' Handgun Carry Permit office checks certificates against school rosters as a part of identifying false certificates.

Please contact me if you have any questions.

Most sincerely,

Susan Lynn

NRA Alert:

Edited December 18, 2008 by DavidD

[Oh Shoot]

Interesting and quick saga.

Just a case of doing badly what need not be done at all?

Indeed, SHOULD not be done at all?

Kudos to NRA for jumping right on this...I'm impressed, to say the least!

- OS

[mousegunner]

I sent this to the Commissioner, I guess it wasn't necessary:

To Dave Mitchell, Commissioner,

Sir: I have recently seen a form in which you are asking schools which conduct classes for handgun permits to record the model and serial number of guns that are being used by the students.

As you know, handgun registration is not required by law in the State of Tennessee. Are you not overstepping your authority to do this de facto handgun registration? Wouldn't those who teach these classes be justified in witholding the information you are requesting?

Personally, I would like to ask you to please change the form you are asking the class teachers/providers to fill out. Handgun registration should be a matter of law, not just someone deciding to stick it on a form.

Thanks,

Marshall C. St. John

Signal Mtn, TN

[GLOCKMEISTER]

guys the real reason they are doing this is to do follow up investigations, contacting students. They want to know if thier instructor actually did what he was supposed to do, follow the states lesson plan and so forth.

The problem for years is there have been istructors giving 1-2 hour permit classes, and some just signing sertificates over with no class at all.

Personally I dont like this "additional paperwork"... But I see where there is a need. The information they are asking for on the other hand I feel should be kept private.

[Oh Shoot]

guys the real reason they are doing this is to do follow up investigations, contacting students. They want to know if thier instructor actually did what he was supposed to do, follow the states lesson plan and so forth.

The problem for years is there have been istructors giving 1-2 hour permit classes, and some just signing sertificates over with no class at all.

Personally I dont like this "additional paperwork"... But I see where there is a need. The information they are asking for on the other hand I feel should be kept private.

So what's the problem with following up with the info they already get?

It's not like you could track half the serial numbers anyway without a full fledged and long drawn out investigation of each one.

They can call or write me with what they have.

Hell, on further thought, THEY issue the permits - can't they cross reference the names and DLN's to do spot checks or whatever? I mean, looks like they HAVE upgraded past DOS 2.0 now.

- OS

Edited December 18, 2008 by OhShoot

[Fallguy]

guys the real reason they are doing this is to do follow up investigations, contacting students. They want to know if thier instructor actually did what he was supposed to do, follow the states lesson plan and so forth.

The problem for years is there have been istructors giving 1-2 hour permit classes, and some just signing sertificates over with no class at all.

Personally I dont like this "additional paperwork"... But I see where there is a need. The information they are asking for on the other hand I feel should be kept private.

From what I read about an audit, I agree this was probably done to be able to somehow follow up and make sure things were done as they are supposed to be. But I don't think this was the best way to go about it and don't think the additional information should be recorded period. Really I'm not sure why any information about the handgun needs to be recorded, but anyway.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

So what's the problem with following up with the info they already get?

It's not like you could track half the serial numbers anyway without a full fledged and long drawn out investigation of each one.

They can call or write me with what they have.

Hell, on further thought, THEY issue the permits - can't they cross reference the names and DLN's to do spot checks or whatever? I mean, looks like they HAVE upgraded past DOS 2.0 now.

- OS

honestly I dont think they could care less about the serial numbers... it is what it is, this is to keep the instructors in check. Its simple as that.

[Fallguy]

Maybe it would be easier to just do away with the safety class requirment?

[Oh Shoot]

honestly I dont think they could care less about the serial numbers... it is what it is, this is to keep the instructors in check. Its simple as that.

You seem to miss the point that they already get everything on the form (except the

serial number)?

Matter of fact, even your SSN is on the certificate itself.

- OS

[GLOCKMEISTER]

no I get the point... you didnt read my post above...

"They could care less about the serial number"... this isnt about serial numbers, some moron just decided to ask for it on the "catch the bad instructor form"...

They will mail out new forms soon that wont be asking for the gun information.

[Guest Schwarzgebrannt]

How is this going to keep the instructors in check better than just sending in an unannounced auditor to observe the class? Do you think that someone who has the misfortune or good luck to waltz (depending on their perspective and ethics) through a CCW mill is going to be gung-ho to tell about it after being randomly contacted? How will they be contacted, through the mail? Phonecall? TBI agent on the doorstep?

The forms are already in violation of a federal statute regarding SSN use, so this is just more camel nose poking into the tent.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

Maybe it would be easier to just do away with the safety class requirment?

yea well bite me...

Come on down here and we'll hook ya up to a energy producing bike..so I can keep my lights on. :p:p:p

[Guest Provence]

I imagine the poor soul who got assigned the task of redesigning the roster had no idea what a can of worms he or she was opening up.

They should have had someone knowledgeable about gun rights look over the thing before it was released.

When I worked for the state, my department had to run any proposed policy changes past the AG's office before the changes were approved.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

How is this going to keep the instructors in check better than just sending in an unannounced auditor to observe the class? Do you think that someone who has the misfortune or good luck to waltz (depending on their perspective and ethics) through a CCW mill is going to be gung-ho to tell about it after being randomly contacted? How will they be contacted, through the mail? Phonecall? TBI agent on the doorstep?

The forms are already in violation of a federal statute regarding SSN use, so this is just more camel nose poking into the tent.

welcome to the board...

It will because an unannounced auditor will just know whats going on that day, not everyday... nor how many people never made it into a real class.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

honestly Im fine with it...

They dont need your gun info, but other then that its no biggie. The only thing that gets me is they need to fix thing like the video, timely renewals, etc... before they give us instructors more paperwork to do.

[Guest Schwarzgebrannt]

welcome to the board...

It will because an unannounced auditor will just know whats going on that day, not everyday... nor how many people never made it into a real class.

Thanks.

I still don't see how this will really help. You might as well use 4473 data to contact purchasers and ask them if FFLs were doing naughty things.

Then again, you do this for a living and I don't.

Edit: oh god the video.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

they are grasping at straws because they dont have the time, money, or manpower to ck every school in a timely manner.. to really catch them. This is easier... and they dont have to go thru any more hoops to get the info. This is simply another burden on us, this way they dont have to get copies from another Dept inside the Dept of safty... they just get it from us.

If that makes sense.

[Oh Shoot]

yea well bite me...

Come on down here and we'll hook ya up to a energy producing bike..so I can keep my lights on. :D:p:p:p

Yeah, I say take some of the state fee and rebate it to the schools. That's the real economy of the state anyway. Say, school you attended gets a bonus for every year you're not involved in an non-justifiable shooting ..

- OS

[Fallguy]

yea well bite me...

Come on down here and we'll hook ya up to a energy producing bike..so I can keep my lights on. :D:p:p:p

I'm afraid you'd be in trouble if you're gonna count on me to keep 'em on. Might could generate enough to keep a flashlight going for ya.

honestly Im fine with it...

They dont need your gun info, but other then that its no biggie. The only thing that gets me is they need to fix thing like the video, timely renewals, etc... before they give us instructors more paperwork to do.

AMEN on the video and other issues!!

Did I read in one post they are going to change the form and not require ANY information about the handgun? If so it sure will make that other thread I stirred up a can of worms in interesting.

[greenego]

guys the real reason they are doing this is to do follow up investigations, contacting students. They want to know if thier instructor actually did what he was supposed to do, follow the states lesson plan and so forth.

The problem for years is there have been istructors giving 1-2 hour permit classes, and some just signing sertificates over with no class at all.

Personally I dont like this "additional paperwork"... But I see where there is a need. The information they are asking for on the other hand I feel should be kept private.

My son-in-law was offered a certificate without taking the class. Told him he needed the class.

[Fallguy]

TDOS STATEMENT ON HANDGUN SAFETY SCHOOLS

NASHVILLE --- This week the Department of Safety mailed new Handgun Safety School Class Roster forms to all 164 Handgun Safety Schools across the state.

The new forms inadvertently included three sections that requested the make of the gun, handgun serial number, and whether the school or student owned the handgun. This should not have been done and the sections were included in error. These new forms had been created in response to a Comptroller’s Performance Audit finding relative to verifying an applicant’s successful completion of a handgun safety course. The intent of the new form was to verify participation in the handgun safety course.

TDOS rules and regulations require records of students who participated in the handgun safety course. This allows the department to verify that an individual applying for a permit has successful completed the course with the handgun safety school. Failure to verify that individuals who apply for a handgun carry permit have successfully completed a course with an approved school may potentially allow individuals to submit false certificates and obtain a handgun carry permit.

A letter from Handgun Permit Unit Director Lisa Knight is being sent to handgun school owners informing them that the Department of Safety has instructed them not to complete the three sections. The Handgun Unit is in the process of revising the form and mailing new forms that omit those three sections.

“There was no intent by the Department of Safety to create any sort of gun registry.” stated Commissioner Dave Mitchell. “The department regrets any confusion or misunderstanding caused by the issuance of the new handgun safety roster form.”

The link to the new form no longer works either.

[Guest Linoge]

You know, the less-charitible side of me almost has to wonder if this was a "throw it against the wall and see if it sticks" maneuver. If no one notices, they can get away with it, right?

But that is just the less-charitible side of me...

[Luckyforward]

The link to the new form no longer works either.

Thank you for posting . . .

[BigPoppa]

honestly Im fine with it...

They dont need your gun info, but other then that its no biggie. The only thing that gets me is they need to fix thing like the video, timely renewals, etc... before they give us instructors more paperwork to do.

Amen Brother !!!!!