Carhart vs. 9mm = Carhart!

[ReeferMac]

http://nypost.com/2016/05/19/nypd-checking-ammo-after-knifemans-jacket-stops-cops-bullets/

 

Four of the shots that cops fired at a madman waving a knife in Midtown failed to penetrate his jacket — which was not bulletproof — and the NYPD will now check the weapons for malfunction, law enforcement sources told The Post.

 

“The bullets we have may be defective and that’s very disturbing,” one source said. “When we fire our weapons, we want to make damn sure that our bullets hit our target — neutralizing our target.”

A sergeant and an officer fired a total of nine rounds at 46-year-old Garry Conrad on Wednesday, with one of the shots killing the depressed Broadway stagehand who refused to drop the blade at West 49th Street and Eighth Avenue.

Four of the bullets got lodged in Conrad’s Carhartt jacket, sources said, adding that he was not wearing a bulletproof vest.

 

 

OK, all you .45 ACP guys can dog-pile on the smaller calibers!

 

- K
 

[Omega]

It happens, specially with slower moving handgun bullets.  A bullet needs some resistance to penetrate, that is the way Kevlar works, it dissipates the energy from point of impact to the surrounding surface.  I wouldn't read too much into it .

[Sidecarist]

I've been a 45 guy for many years, but this isn't a caliber problem. There are just too many variables in a shooting situation. They had a 50% failure to stop rate. Sounds about typical to me. Some will argue that this is a good reason to carry a high capacity 9mm, and/or spare mags. I wouldn't disagree with that.

Heavy clothing, angle of entry, and countless other factors come into play... Handguns suck at stopping fights.

It's a shame that someone is going to have to argue that the ammo was ok, the guns were ok, instead of admitting that they stopped the fight. Someone may get a big check from the knee jerk reaction to this. They may even switch calibers or guns which may reduce officer competence with their weapon...

I'm more concerned about the bystander that was struck.

[Jeb48]

Here is a test of Carhartt's bullet repelling ability.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2016/05/robert-farago/ttag-exclusive-shootingthebull410-test-carhartt-jacket-gold-dot-124p-9mm-ammo-re-nypd-claim-stopped-bullets/

[Patton]

Just to add fuel to the fire, I discovered some Gold Dot, 135 gr 38spl that had been my carry load to have some rediculously under performing velocity. Through a 2" S&W j frame they were traveling a whopping 750fps. 

[10-Ring]

9mm is fine, but since this happened in NY it's bound to be screwed up.

[Sidecarist]

Actually NYPD has good training generally.  Like most large departments they are let down by management & bureaucracy.  Sadly they get saddled with 10+lb triggers and other stupid stuff.

Never mind it's still screwed up

[Pete123]

Below is info on what NYPD carry.  Clearly, this is quality equipment.  Below is a link to someone essentially saying that the newspaper was duped into printing BS by the NYPD

The NYPD, the largest police department in America, has more than 40,000 officers—in effect the fourth-largest army in the world—equipped with some of the best 9mm weapons on the market, all using Speer’s 124-grain Gold Dot hollow-point +P load.

NYPD officers buy their own guns, and can choose from three options: The Glock 19, the S&W 5946 and the Sig Sauer P226 DAO. 

 

http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/05/23/everything-heard-jacket-stopping-nypd-bullets-absurdly-false/

[Patton]

Actually, the NY trigger spring is not that bad. I was told about four years ago new recruits could no longer choose the Sig 226. They were limited to the G19 and 5946 for on duty weapons. If you were on the job before 1996 or so you could still carry a 38spl as a duty weapon. The only authorized 9mm ammo is the 124 plus p Gold Dot. It is the only ammo you can carry and even practice with. 

[Grayfox54]

Bad ammo does happen. I've spoken before of my late friend Bill, the retired LEO. 

Late 1970s, Key West, FL. I should mention that Bill was a big barrel chested guy anyway and at the time he was heavily into weight lifting and exercise. Pretty much 200+ lbs of solid muscle. 

Should have been a routine undercover drug buy. BGs had other ideas. They meet and suddenly BG #1 pulls a 9mm and shoots Bill in the upper left chest. Bill goes down, but manages to pull his gun double tapping the BG  and ending his criminal career. Bill's partner deals with BG#2 with similar results,              Bill is on the ground in severe pain, rips open his shirt to check the wound. Finds a big, nasty bruise, BUT the bullet DID NOT break the skin!                      As near as Bill could ever figure, it must have been a bad round. Either that or the Man upstairs was really looking out for him that night. Maybe both. 

[Jamie Jackson]

6 hours ago, Sidecarist said:

 

Heavy clothing, angle of entry, and countless other factors come into play... Handguns suck at stopping fights.

 

^^^ This is the money quote!  Handgun rounds are woefully inadequate at terminating fights which is why more rounds is a smart way to go imho.

I've seen folks shot in the head at relatively close range, and the round failed to penetrate (.38 spl iirc)...it was a nasty cut, but skipped off the skull.

The 124 gr Gold Dot has a good street record for working as designed. Weird crap happens...

 

 

Thanks for the vid link Jeb. It's sad to know my Carhartt jacket isn't bulletproof...

 

6 hours ago, Sidecarist said:

 

 

[Trekbike]

7 hours ago, Pete123 said:

 

NYPD officers buy their own guns, and can choose from three options: The Glock 19, the S&W 5946 and the Sig Sauer P226 DAO. 

Is it typical that the officers in other departments have to buy their own weapons?    I just assumed it would be provided.   

[DaveTN]

5 minutes ago, Trekbike said:

Is it typical that the officers in other departments have to buy their own weapons?    I just assumed it would be provided.   

Every department is different. We had to buy our own on the department I was on many years ago; I think they supply them today. I would rather buy my own than have a department issued weapon.

[DaveTN]

I’m not a fan of the 9mm; but this isn’t a 9mm issue. I have no doubt a good 9mm round will shoot through a Carhartt jacket. Something happen to the ammo prior to the shooting.

[nightrunner]

I know police will never use it aside from a hostage situation, but as a civilian, it's why I practice 2 to the chest, reevaluate, then a head shot. There are way too many stories of guys getting shot multiple times in the chest and not stopping. A CNS hit is the only thing that stops immediately.

[Sidecarist]

2 hours ago, prag said:

^^^ This is the money quote!  Handgun rounds are woefully inadequate at terminating fights which is why more rounds is a smart way to go imho.

I've seen folks shot in the head at relatively close range, and the round failed to penetrate (.38 spl iirc)...it was a nasty cut, but skipped off the skull.

The 124 gr Gold Dot has a good street record for working as designed. Weird crap happens...

 

 

Thanks for the vid link Jeb. It's sad to know my Carhartt jacket isn't bulletproof...

 

 

If anyone thinks their handgun is a 100% fight stopper they are delusional. Even rifles aren't 100%. There are too many ways to fail and the 100% targets are too small and moving too unpredictably. The shooter is under stress etc...

Somewhere I heard it said that "the only fight you really win is the one you never get into" sadly some LEO's find themselves in situations  where they have no choice. This is one of those examples. 

Prag said it... Weird crap happens...

 

Edited May 25, 2016 by Sidecarist
I hate auto correct

[BigK]

Well, after reading this and doing some deep thinking, I'm switching from 9mm to a Carhart jacket and a sharp stick.

Edited May 25, 2016 by BigK

[Patton]

4 hours ago, Trekbike said:

Is it typical that the officers in other departments have to buy their own weapons?    I just assumed it would be provided.   

New York City is about the only large department that I know of where officers buy their own duty weapon. City of Austin used to but they started supplying officers their weapons a few years ago.

 

NYPD is a very strange place. Officers buy every piece of gear except the radio, the ammo, and the badge. That is why you see some really ugly and worn uniforms and belts. I was told by a friend that works there that officers take pride in nasty looking gear as if it shows their experience. Rookies have to earn their wear. Their are still several hundred revolvers worn as duty weapons because officers refuse to switch and buy new gear. 

Edited May 25, 2016 by Patton

[glowdotGlock]

I'm curious if the 4 that didn't penetrate came from the same pistol.

[BigK]

I am most impressed that 5 of 9 shots missed their target in NYC and only one of those 5 rounds hit a bystander.

[Sidecarist]

1 hour ago, Patton said:

New York City is about the only large department that I know of where officers buy their own duty weapon. City of Austin used to but they started supplying officers their weapons a few years ago.

 

NYPD is a very strange place. Officers buy every piece of gear except the radio, the ammo, and the badge. That is why you see some really ugly and worn uniforms and belts. I was told by a friend that works there that officers take pride in nasty looking gear as if it shows their experience. Rookies have to earn their wear. Their are still several hundred revolvers worn as duty weapons because officers refuse to switch and buy new gear. 

Nice retention holster there...

[bud]

.

Edited June 18, 2016 by bud

[dcloudy777]

It is a bit disturbing... I too carry the 124gr Gold Dots.

But I'm not going to get too wrapped around the axle over one incident, particularly if the NYPD is involved.

[Trekbike]

So is the takeaway from this story, wear a Carhart jacket or don't use Gold Dot 9's?     

[Omega]

1 minute ago, Trekbike said:

So is the takeaway from this story, wear a Carhart jacket or don't use Gold Dot 9's?     

There is no spoon errr, Carhart.