HCP Holders - Supplemental Qualification Opportunity

[strickj]

I think the easiest way to end this would be for someone to provide a link showing where a TN court has debated the controllability of different calibers in a justifiable-self defense shooting case.

Just to un-bury my question.

Can someone provide some proof that differentiating calibers has been an issue in a TN court?

If not then everyone is debating nothing more then speculation of paranoiac.

I'll even revise the question to include accidental shootings,or property damage from a bad shot.

There is an entire industry set up to catch you in a mistake, error, or omission and take every thing you have. Sometimes, you can prove that you did NOT make a mistake, error, or omission, and still lose your shirt.

This industry is called the Legal Profession. Win or lose, you always pay your attorney.

Big Poppa has a noble cause. I recommend the same thing.

One can go to a range, pay the fee, get a receipt, and document that they performed training. Document time, date, location, rounds fired, firearm used, distance, and light conditions.

Since you will likely have to deter an attack in poor light conditions, shooting in a poorly lit indoor range can be considered shooting under conditions of Reduced Light.

I have been a Firearms Instructor and State Certified Trainer for quite a few years. Having performed Forensic background work and having been in Civil Court as an Expert Witness, I have seen numerous poor souls financially destroyed in Court.

If you are unwilling to take any steps to reduce liability in Court, and increase your chances of surviving a Lethal Encounter, you are less than wise.

I like that emoticon too!

You sound like you've been there a time or two.Care to elaborate?

I think if anyone is paranoid enough to want to reduce their court liabilities then maybe Pre-Paid legal services is for them

Edited December 21, 2008 by strickj

[Guest Ggun]

Just to un-bury my question.

Can someone provide some proof that differentiating calibers has been an issue in a TN court?

If not then everyone is debating nothing more then speculation of paranoiac.

I'll even revise the question to include accidental shootings,or property damage from a bad shot.

You sound like you've been there a time or two.Care to elaborate?

I think if anyone is paranoid enough to want to reduce their court liabilities then maybe Pre-Paid legal services is for them

It doesn't take much thought to suggest that the State would certainly take a citizen to task if that citizen used, for instance, an AR-15, in a defensive or bad shot scenario in a multi-resident building. Or, even using a FMJ 9mm, but I doubt there has been any TN cases on point.

[DaveTN]

This is going in all different directions. There really can’t be an intelligent conversation without discussing specific scenarios.

Criminal Vs. Civil.

Let’s say you shoot a bad guy. It won’t matter if you shot him with a .22 or a 500 S&W; if you were justified in using deadly force.

Now, you could find yourself charged criminally if you continued to shoot him after the threat was over.

Reckless Homicide (or whatever the name is in this state).

Lets say you are at the local Stop & Rob during an armed robbery. The bad guy is holding a gun on the clerk and telling them to give them all the money. You are legally justified in blasting him with your 500 S&W, so you do so. No harm no foul.

However… you shoot him and it goes through him, or you shoot at him and miss him; killing the six year old kid standing past him.

Now everything has changed. An innocent child has been killed by a HCP holder; the news stations and the public are going to out for blood.

Everyone, including the members of this forum is going to crucify you. They are going to sit back and decide what you did wrong. A kid is dead; something had to go wrong.

Criminal charges can be brought even though you were justified in using deadly force. What if you had just let the robber go? Were you properly trained? Why were you using that ammo? That gun?

You screwed up. And you will go through hell. Even if you don’t go to prison you will probably be destroyed financially, not to mention living with fact that you killed a kid.

All the handgun certifications in the world will not keep you from going through that.

However… training on whether or not to engage that suspect and tactical training on how to handle that situation might. It’s not all about trigger time.

Civil cases…. Wide open. The state doesn’t guarantee you won’t have huge legal bills even in a good shoot. And in a bad shoot everything will come into play. Again the only insurance you can have is good training and situational awareness.

My own policy is that I’m not a cop anymore and I don’t have qualified immunity; I’m not carrying a gun to enforce the laws. Unless I am clear in my own mind that someone is about to die; I don’t act.

[Guest grimel]

BTW, the Tn Dept of Safety is now requiring info on the score, make, model, caliber, and serial number of the firearm used in the HCP Class.

Go to http://www.state.tn.us/safety/forms/HGschoolroster200862408.pdf for info.

Which does nada for anything. I can use my gun, my dad's gun, my cousin's gun, the range's gun, etc. I can sell the gun I used. In TN there is NO requirement to carry the gun with which you qualified. Use any gun, carry any gun.

[Guest grimel]

also, if it is NEVER brought up...wonder why armed guards, ... MUST qualify with the gun they carry for duty...hmmm...liabilty for the dept/agency..but hell, if its a good shoot, who cares right? .

No, the do not have to qualify with the gun they carry on duty. They don't even have to qualify with the same type of gun they carry on duty. Company policy MAY require they qualify with a gun.

[Guest grimel]

It doesn't take much thought to suggest that the State would certainly take a citizen to task if that citizen used, for instance, an AR-15, in a defensive or bad shot scenario in a multi-resident building.

Just because the State is full of ignorant a$$ people who would try to take someone to task for using an AR-15 in a multi-resident building doesn't make the AR not the best choice.

[Guest canynracer]

No, the do not have to qualify with the gun they carry on duty. They don't even have to qualify with the same type of gun they carry on duty. Company policy MAY require they qualify with a gun.

Ummm sorry to have to diagree with you but, ...The duty weapon of MPD is the Sig 229 in 40 caliber...that is their duty weapon, that is what they qual with, that is what they must carry. They are allowed specific backups, there is a list of approved backups, they must qual with them as well. If they want to carry off duty, they are only allowed to carry their duty weapon, if they wanna carry something else, they need a HCP.

same with Shelby county except they carry a sig 226.

There are plenty of LEOs here, hopefully they will speak up. I do know that the agencies that do not issue, still require the officer to qualify with what they are going to carry on duty, and as a backup...such as Madison County.

and ALL security guards must qualify with the weapon they are going to use. This is for the armed guard license. not the company.

[DaveTN]

If they want to carry off duty, they are only allowed to carry their duty weapon, if they wanna carry something else, they need a HCP.

Wow…. Requiring an HCP for a cop. Tennessee really is tough.

[Reservoir Dog]

Ooops, nevermind.

[Fallguy]

Wow…. Requiring an HCP for a cop. Tennessee really is tough.

The state doesn't require it. The department does if they want to carry anything besides what is approved by their department while off duty.

[DaveTN]

The state doesn't require it. The department does if they want to carry anything besides what is approved by their department while off duty.

Then it’s a department policy for Metro PD; not a state law?

And their department wants them to carry a .40 cal (Big as a freakin brick) Sig?

I’m almost afraid to ask (because I think if this is true I know the answer ) but what is the logic behind this?

[Fallguy]

Then it’s a department policy for Metro PD; not a state law?

And their department wants them to carry a .40 cal (Big as a freakin brick) Sig?

I’m almost afraid to ask (because I think if this is true I know the answer ) but what is the logic behind this?

Statewide there is more than one department that has this policy, but I don't know each one of them. So not sure about Metro Nashville. But the state law that allows officers to carry 24/7 does not restrict them to their service weapon. So their is not state law that dictates what weapon an officer can carry.

Each department has different weapon(s) they allow/want their officers to carry.

I have no idea what the logic behind it is. Some of it may go back to the whole thing that started this...liabilty. The department may only want to be liable for weapon(s) they issued to the officer.

[Guest Phantom6]

Just because the State is full of ignorant a$$ people who would try to take someone to task for using an AR-15 in a multi-resident building doesn't make the AR not the best choice.

Well, in that case I'm gonna get me a AR-10 and when that round comes a rippin' through your wall with our neighbors' brains all over it after traveling through all of the walls of my home, the walls of his home (as well as his head- remember, he's short and center mass on most folks would be a head shot for him) you remember you said that.

[Guest JLowe]

For the officers duty weapon, they must qualify with the weapon that they are going to carry on duty. They must qualify with any and all other weapons that they are going to carry as well. All weapons qualified with are recorded as well as the serial numbers. If an officer carries a weapon that they have not qualified with and they put a hole in somebody on or off duty, they will increase their liability as well as their depts. Off duty carry varies from department to department and follows the Policy and Procedures of each individual dept. At every dept. I have worked for, there are certain criteria:

1. You must qualify with your off duty/backup gun.

2. You must follow P&P in choosing your off duty/backup gun.

3. If you choose to have several different of the dept. approved od/bu gun, you must qualify with each one. The make, model, caliber, and serial number is always recorded and kept on file with the Dept.s head training officer.

Some departments only allow their officers to carry certain calibers or certain guns. I think that the certain gun rule is wrong. I can understand the standard caliber part, but not the gun part. Officers are just like people and come in different shapes and sizes and should be allowed to carry the od/bu gun that they are comfortable with.

[Guest canynracer]

Thanks JLowe.

and I agree, one size doe not fit all.

[Guest Ggun]

This is going in all different directions. There really can’t be an intelligent conversation without discussing specific scenarios.

Criminal Vs. Civil.

Let’s say you shoot a bad guy. It won’t matter if you shot him with a .22 or a 500 S&W; if you were justified in using deadly force.

Now, you could find yourself charged criminally if you continued to shoot him after the threat was over.

Reckless Homicide (or whatever the name is in this state).

Lets say you are at the local Stop & Rob during an armed robbery. The bad guy is holding a gun on the clerk and telling them to give them all the money. You are legally justified in blasting him with your 500 S&W, so you do so. No harm no foul.

However… you shoot him and it goes through him, or you shoot at him and miss him; killing the six year old kid standing past him.

Now everything has changed. An innocent child has been killed by a HCP holder; the news stations and the public are going to out for blood.

Everyone, including the members of this forum is going to crucify you. They are going to sit back and decide what you did wrong. A kid is dead; something had to go wrong.

Criminal charges can be brought even though you were justified in using deadly force. What if you had just let the robber go? Were you properly trained? Why were you using that ammo? That gun?

You screwed up. And you will go through hell. Even if you don’t go to prison you will probably be destroyed financially, not to mention living with fact that you killed a kid.

All the handgun certifications in the world will not keep you from going through that.

However… training on whether or not to engage that suspect and tactical training on how to handle that situation might. It’s not all about trigger time.

Civil cases…. Wide open. The state doesn’t guarantee you won’t have huge legal bills even in a good shoot. And in a bad shoot everything will come into play. Again the only insurance you can have is good training and situational awareness.

My own policy is that I’m not a cop anymore and I don’t have qualified immunity; I’m not carrying a gun to enforce the laws. Unless I am clear in my own mind that someone is about to die; I don’t act.

+1 on your policy. I wish more gun carriers would consider it. There are too many neighborhood vigilantes who think they need to draw their weapon anytime they get *suspicious* of others.

[Punisher84]

. There are too many neighborhood vigilantes who think they need to draw their weapon anytime they get *suspicious* of others.

[tnfan]

Great post Ggun. I do not feel they emphasized the above enough in my HCP class. Got a feeling that a lot of HCP holders do not fully understand the personal and civil ramifications and responsibility of carrying. Probably most do on this board but we are only a small representation of those with HCP's.

BTW, I am a newly licensed and plan on taking additional defensive and tactical training.

[Guest Fenris]

Thanks for a great thread and discussion. As someone who is going to take the class in January, the thought of a 'bad shoot' makes me go cold in my deep, deep places. I'm taking that as a good thing.

I plan on taking more classwork than the basic HCP class.

[Guest Phantom6]

Thanks for a great thread and discussion. As someone who is going to take the class in January, the thought of a 'bad shoot' makes me go cold in my deep, deep places. I'm taking that as a good thing.

I plan on taking more classwork than the basic HCP class.

Good because anyone that thinks that the TN HCP course will give them what they need to come out of a gunfight unscathed either physically, emotionally or financially is simply fooling themselves. There are some good instructors over in your neck of the woods but you are welcome to come to Oak Ridge any time.

[BigPoppa]

Good because anyone that thinks that the TN HCP course will give them what they need to come out of a gunfight unscathed either physically, emotionally or financially is simply fooling themselves.

+ lots

[Guest Guntrainer]

I have been in court and heard a defendant in a Lethal Confrontation raked over the coals by the attorney representing the family of the deceased. The winner of the gunfight used a 357 Magnum, which the attorney basically shouted about to the jury. "Why did he have to use a MAGNUM?"

How much did that influence the jury? One would have to ask them. The defendant paid big time.

When performing Paralegal duties for my Father-in-Law several years ago, I heard a Judge castigate a defendant for using a "heavy caliber military pistol" (1911 45 caliber) in a Lethal Confrontation before sentencing him to 4 years! It was a good shoot gone bad. A center shot with Military hardball killed the attacker, but also an uninvolved bystander behind the BG. This was at the Gold Rush bar in downtown Nashville. Yeah, I know, the guy was carrying in a bar. Not good. But he did survive the encounter.

Your training records will likely be subpoenaed for a Criminal action and CERTAINLY for a Civil Action. The Carry Class is less than stellar, but do not forget, the Dept of Safety has a lesson plan, and they expect us as Instructors to follow it.

One can lose his shirt in Civil Court AFTER being vindicated in Criminal Court! NEVER FORGET THIS. The other guy's attorney is going to shake the money tree and see if anything shakes loose.

As far as Prepaid Legal? What the salesman says about this "product" should be checked with the actual contract. I performed service for a company that hawked this stuff. The Office Manager grossly misrepresented the product. During her divorce, she sought an attorney other than one from this company.

Google "Prepaid Legal" and be ready to read page after page of advisories warning about this service.

[Guest Ggun]

I have been in court and heard a defendant in a Lethal Confrontation raked over the coals by the attorney representing the family of the deceased. The winner of the gunfight used a 357 Magnum, which the attorney basically shouted about to the jury. "Why did he have to use a MAGNUM?"

snip.

Have ya'll ever noticed that anytime a suspect is mentioned having a handgun the LEO always note that there was a chambered round, that the suspect had one in the pipe, as if that makes one a worse BG?

Now, don't most all HCP owners who carry have "one in the pipe"?

[Guest Guntrainer]

Dear Ggun

You are right. However, if I have to again counter a threat from an attacker with a handgun, I hope he has an empty chamber.

If memory serves me right, the average shooter must use two hands to charge the firearm. If I tie up one of his hands, he has a dead gun.

Something you boys and girls need to think about.

Also, if a hand or arm is injured, how are you going to charge your firearm?

As one who has a considerable amount of training, I have techniques for this, but how many folks have the training, knowledge, and practice to do this when in a Lethal Confrontation? You will be loaded on adrenalin, fine motor skills out the window, possibly injured and going into shock!

[Guest grimel]

Well, in that case I'm gonna get me a AR-10 and when that round comes a rippin' through your wall with our neighbors' brains all over it after traveling through all of the walls of my home, the walls of his home (as well as his head- remember, he's short and center mass on most folks would be a head shot for him) you remember you said that. :taunt:

Use the right ammo and it won't make it to the neighbor much less my house.