HCP Holders - Supplemental Qualification Opportunity

[Guest nraforlife]

As everyone is WELL aware, or should be, you DO NOT need to qualify on what you are going to carry, which kinda hacked me off when I was an active instructior. That said, it would probably be in ones own self interest to be on record as having reshot to the State HCP standard if one is going from a revolver to an auto or from a 22 to a 45 don't you think?

[Punisher84]

It’s all smoke and mirrors.

If you find yourself in a criminal or civil trial; you have screwed up big time.

The gun, caliber, ammo, training score; sure any of that can be used; but it didn’t get you in that courtroom.

The law. We don’t know it; we don’t understand it, and we don’t have access to it.

As a former cop I’m use to knowing exactly what the law is and its interpretations by the local courts and prosecutors. Since I moved to Tennessee I don’t have that. Sure I have access to the written law itself, but that is only part of the answer when you are talking about something as important as the use of deadly force or the laws governing carry. No disrespect to the trainers here but most are not trained in this area that is obvious in some of the replies. As I have said before I would like to see seminars offered by local prosecutors and criminal defense attorneys.

First that bold statement: That is not always the case. There have been several instances where prosecutors have gone after people and used ammo, caliber, or even type of firearm against them to a jury.

Second, there may be several trainers that are not versed in the current laws, but I know and work with SEVERAL trainers, cops and civilian, that could probably tell you more about the law than a few lawyers trying cases right now and most certainly more than your average beat cop. I'm in friggin' private security and I know more about the laws than about 75% of the cops I interact with everyday.

In order to understand the law all one must do is research. Research the laws themselves and then follow and research cases in your jurisdiction.

[Oh Shoot]

....

As far as retraining, I found it amusing that the state would not accept my LEO certification because it was too old; but there is no requirement for requalification on a renewal no matter how old it is. ...

Maybe I'm misunderstanding this statement, did you mean renewal of your LEO certification or of a HCP?

For HCP, there IS requirement for requalification if permit has lapsed for over 6 months, is what I mean. ?

- OS

[DaveTN]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding this statement, did you mean renewal of your LEO certification or of a HCP?

For HCP, there IS requirement for requalification if permit has lapsed for over 6 months, is what I mean. ?

- OS

I mean that Tennessee doesn’t require you to take the class if you have a LEO certification, but it has a time limit; 5 or 10 years (I don’t remember exactly). Someone who has had a carry permit that same amount of time is not required to take a class for renewal.

I can understand that if they thought you had been out of LE for long enough you should re- qualify; but wouldn’t that same logic apply to HCP holders?

[Oh Shoot]

I mean that Tennessee doesn’t require you to take the class if you have a LEO certification, but it has a time limit; 5 or 10 years (I don’t remember exactly). Someone who has had a carry permit that same amount of time is not required to take a class for renewal.

I can understand that if they thought you had been out of LE for long enough you should re- qualify; but wouldn’t that same logic apply to HCP holders?

Gotcha. And point taken.

- OS

[DaveTN]

First that bold statement: That is not always the case. There have been several instances where prosecutors have gone after people and used ammo, caliber, or even type of firearm against them to a jury.

They use anything and everything in trial. My point is that those things probably didn’t get them to trial. But then we would have to look at each case to determine that. I’m not worried about what caliber or handgun I use.

Second, there may be several trainers that are not versed in the current laws, but I know and work with SEVERAL trainers, cops and civilian, that could probably tell you more about the law than a few lawyers trying cases right now and most certainly more than your average beat cop.

There are plenty of people that think they know the law. We see it in these discussions all the time. Deadly force, vehicle stops, search and seizure, DUI, probable cause; some know what they are talking about, some are pretty amusing.

I'm in friggin' private security and I know more about the laws than about 75% of the cops I interact with everyday.

Of course you do. I know a lot of cops, but I only know a couple of Tennessee cops. Either you are a very dedicated individual or Tennessee standards are pretty low.

You are a "private security" what?

In order to understand the law all one must do is research. Research the laws themselves and then follow and research cases in your jurisdiction.

Absolutely. This isn’t fun and games (well sometimes it is); it’s serious. When I see someone getting dumb azz information that could get them in trouble; I’ll call

Intelligent people will then try to find out the answer instead of believing whoever is saying what they want to hear.

Fill us in on where to search case law.

If I want to know what is going to happen on a traffic stop in Nashville I’ll take the word of a Metro cop over a lawyer, corrections officer or someone claiming to be a “LEOâ€. If I want to know about a criminal court procedure I’ll ask a lawyer that specializes in criminal law; not my divorce attorney. And If I’m just killing some time for amusement I’ll ask someone that has absolutely no training but has found michie.com

[strickj]

I’m not worried about what caliber or handgun I use

As long as its not a 9mm right?

I think the easiest way to end this would be for someone to provide a link showing where a TN court has debated the controllability of different calibers in a justifiable-self defense shooting case.

[DaveTN]

As long as its not a 9mm right?

A 9 might be okay if thats all you have; just as long as its not a .380.

I think the easiest way to end this would be for someone to provide a link showing where a TN court has debated the controllability of different calibers in a justifiable-self defense shooting case.

Yes. And if it’s a justifiable shooting; I’m assuming it is some type of civil action.

[Fallguy]

If I want to know what is going to happen on a traffic stop in Nashville I’ll take the word of a Metro cop over a lawyer, corrections officer or someone claiming to be a “LEOâ€. If I want to know about a criminal court procedure I’ll ask a lawyer that specializes in criminal law; not my divorce attorney. And If I’m just killing some time for amusement I’ll ask someone that has absolutely no training but has found michie.com

Fine....I won't look up or post anything else from michie.com............

The Metro officer can tell you what he would do on a traffic stop, but that doesn't mean all officers would do it, or that what he was doing was right or even legal.

[DaveTN]

Fine....I won't look up or post anything else from michie.com............

Come on, don’t be that way; I said it’s amusing.

The Metro officer can tell you what he would do on a traffic stop, but that doesn't mean all officers would do it, or that what he was doing was right or even legal.

Exactly. But that’s what I’m saying… if someone ask what would happen on a traffic stop or a domestic violence call where I worked; I could tell them what most Officers would do. (Since I had worked with most of them)

In the discussions on vehicle searches I can say what I would do. You can follow whatever advice you like; but you should try to make sure you aren’t following advice that would likely land you in jail. Like the attorney telling people to get out of the car on a traffic stop and lock the doors.

[Punisher84]

Of course you do. I know a lot of cops, but I only know a couple of Tennessee cops. Either you are a very dedicated individual or Tennessee standards are pretty low.

You are a "private security" what?

I deal with Memphis PD mostly. It's a little bit of both, but yea the standards are pretty low. As far as my job I'm one of the Training Officers for one of the local hospital groups here in Memphis. So I have to be aware of not only our legal procedures, but detention, search and seizure law as well.

If I want to know what is going to happen on a traffic stop in Nashville I’ll take the word of a Metro cop over a lawyer, corrections officer or someone claiming to be a “LEO”. If I want to know about a criminal court procedure I’ll ask a lawyer that specializes in criminal law; not my divorce attorney.

I agree with that for the most part, except the cops are not the end all be all on the law. You have read my posts in the past so you know I'm pretty pro-cop (bout to go through reserve training soon hopefully EMTRN!!) , but I have seen officers with just as much ignorance of the laws as the common citizen.

That was pretty much all I'm getting at and hey if I'm proven wrong on something I like to know, because I like to be on top of things and do things right. That's a part of the reason I'm 24 years old and teaching guys twice my age how to do their jobs and not eat donuts all day

[Guest canynracer]

To put the thread back on topic. Qualifying again with your carry gun is your choice, you can do it, or not.

I look at it as insurance, Hopefully I will NEVER need it..but I will be very happy I spent 10 dollars if I do.

I just wonder...why does the state ask for the make, model and caliber for your cert?

forget the new form where they ask the other stuff..just the CURRENT docs..make, model, caliber...why ask if it is irrelevant?

also, if it is NEVER brought up...wonder why armed guards, and LEOS MUST qualify with the gun they carry for duty...hmmm...liabilty for the dept/agency..but hell, if its a good shoot, who cares right?

for a one time 10 dollars..hell, I would be happy to keep that in my file...just in case.

annyway..to each his own.

[Guest TnDeerHunter]

I feel if someone wants to sue and gets a good lawyer he will find something to present to the courts. It sounds reasonable to qualifie with what you carry but if you shoot a bystander you are up the creek no matter how many certificates you have.

[BigPoppa]

Sheeesh, I had no idea I would be starting such a .

One quick thing................

but if you shoot a bystander you are up the creek no matter how many certificates you have.

probably true, but I'll submit that one way to help make sure you don't shoot that bystander is more trigger time prior to the defensive event

[deerslayer]

if you shoot a bystander you are up the creek no matter how many certificates you have.

+1

[Fallguy]

Sheeesh, I had no idea I would be starting such a .

Or that there would be so many hands helping to stir....

[Guest canynracer]

....but if you shoot a bystander you are up the creek no matter how many certificates you have.

It doesnt HAVE to be a bystander to be sued in civil court...

[Fallguy]

It doesnt HAVE to be a bystander to be sued in civil court...

True, but even in an otherwise "justifiable" shoot, you have no civil protection at all if you kill or injure an innocent party or damage their property like you do from the BG.

[Guest canynracer]

exactly!!! so why not rule out "control" as the being the issue of "why" you hit the cat standing near the BG? like I said, to each his own...

I can see both points, its up to the dude or dudette carrying.

[Fallguy]

exactly!!! so why not rule out "control" as the being the issue of "why" you hit the cat standing near the BG? like I said, to each his own...

I can see both points, its up to the dude or dudette carrying.

I just meant I think his point was that no matter if you were a Expert Marksmen in the armed forces, it wouldn't help you if you shot a bystander. If you cause damages to the bystander you will be found liable, no matter what. Not that it wouldn't help in other cases or that you shouldn't do the extra training.

[Guest canynracer]

Werd.

Edited December 21, 2008 by canynracer

[Guest TnDeerHunter]

I think I would have been better off on the sidelines reading. I wasn't agreeing with either side I think as responable ccp holders we should all practice trigger control and be able to hit are justifible target what ever it is. The extra paper work is in my opinion up to the person or persons as their choice. That being said collateral damage is not acceptable if it happens (heaven forbid) you will be looking for that paddle

[Guest canynracer]

Naw..i just misunterstood! all good here.... Fallguy has once again shown me the err in my ways...LOL...dont mind me (nobody else does.)

[Guest HexHead]

I'm sure the state likes to make money too...they may even decide we need to qualify again when we renew our permits every 4 years.

Don't go giving them any ideas.

[Guest Ggun]

One quick thing................

Quote:

but if you shoot a bystander you are up the creek no matter how many certificates you have.

probably true, but I'll submit that one way to help make sure you don't shoot that bystander is more trigger time prior to the defensive event

So, whe're back to your services, what kind of certificate does one get to present to the Court? Do you offer a caliber cert?