HCP Holders - Supplemental Qualification Opportunity

[Fallguy]

You've been quoting TDOS procedures...so where is the part about recording the specific numerical score?

A copy of all scores shall be maintained by the Handgun Safety School for a minimum of five (5) years from the date of the examinations.

Are you saying instructors that don't do that aren't following TDOS procedure?

My previous statement stands on its own merit.

So as I read the first one...you don't even send the score into the state? It's just kept on file with the school?

If so they can't go back to my instructor because it has WAY over 5 years ago that I got my permit but mainly because I don't think the guy that did mine is still around anymore anyway.

[BigPoppa]

So as I read the first one...you don't even send the score into the state? It's just kept on file with the school? Correct.

If so they can't go back to my instructor because it has WAY over 5 years ago that I got my permit but mainly because I don't think the guy that did mine is still around anymore anyway. All the more reason to take advantage of a program like the one I am offering.

[Fallguy]

Let me publicly say I wasn't really trying to stir things up.

I read the post, had a gut reaction, but then decided maybe I shouldn't have posted it, but it was too late.

I don't personally see the need in it, but I won't go so far as to say it's a bad idea.

BigPoppa was clear in the OP that it was not required, it was just something he was offering.

For those that take advantage of this oppurtunity... Hope you have a good time. Of course how can you not when throwing some hot lead down range.

[Guest canynracer]

I have seen several places offer this..It is more for a civil suit. You are right, you are not REQUIRED to carry the gun you qualify with...but, if you use your 45 in self defense, and a bullet over penetrates, or misses, or whatever, and kill the neighbors dog...they WILL sue you in civil court.

lets not act like they are not going to bring up the fact that you qualified with a 22 and you carry a 45 and you didnt have "control" and that is why fluffy died.

Its not required, its just one less thing the courts can bring up.

the gun you qualified with are on the cert you got from your school...if you still have that copy, look at it. and YES, that does go to the state...and it is kept...I am sure there is a reason they keep that. Your score may not go, but the make, model and caliber does.

Edited December 16, 2008 by canynracer

[Farman]

First. Don't forget to read my dad,s quote in my signature. Added strictly for my use.

Second. I don't really see a need to requalify with every handgun I own, may carry and may have too use. But if anyone wants to, go for it.

Third. If you do have to shoot someone and it's a "good shoot" I don't think it would matter what weapon you used.(handgun or rifle). If, however, you take out three bystanders even with the weapon you qualified with you'll be in deep Do-Do.

JMHO !!!

[Farman]

Randy, I will definitely agree with you that the average HCP student, and even most HCP holders, don't know how much they don't know.

This is why I, you, Todd, and most everybody else I know of that does this kind of thing right, recommends to HCP students to take more training. I tell EVERY class....."Please don't stop with this. Take more classes. Even if it's not from me, that's okay, but let me refer you to some reputable trainers that I know"

As we all know, 93 % WON'T take any further training. Half of that number won't even ever shoot their gun again unless they have to when their HCP expires.

So, yes, I agree that (sad but true) many times when somebody is shopping for their HCP class, they will go for the sizzle rather than the steak.

The above is by Bigpopa from an older thread and I agree with everything he says. I think this thread should have progressed more along the lines of more training and practice is a good thing.

[Guest nraforlife]

Why I frown on people qualifying with a 6 inch barrell 22 and then carrying a 1911

[Guest Guntrainer]

There is an entire industry set up to catch you in a mistake, error, or omission and take every thing you have. Sometimes, you can prove that you did NOT make a mistake, error, or omission, and still lose your shirt.

This industry is called the Legal Profession. Win or lose, you always pay your attorney.

Big Poppa has a noble cause. I recommend the same thing.

One can go to a range, pay the fee, get a receipt, and document that they performed training. Document time, date, location, rounds fired, firearm used, distance, and light conditions.

Since you will likely have to deter an attack in poor light conditions, shooting in a poorly lit indoor range can be considered shooting under conditions of Reduced Light.

I have been a Firearms Instructor and State Certified Trainer for quite a few years. Having performed Forensic background work and having been in Civil Court as an Expert Witness, I have seen numerous poor souls financially destroyed in Court.

If you are unwilling to take any steps to reduce liability in Court, and increase your chances of surviving a Lethal Encounter, you are less than wise.

I like that emoticon too!

[Fallguy]

So.....following this same course of reasoning, one should retake their drivers test in every car they own or intend to drive right?

It could help to reduce their liabilty when in an auto accident right? To show that they understood the operation of the particular vehicle? I mean if they took their DL road test in a VW bug and then drive a 4-door 3/4 ton truck they may not understand the difference in they way the operate. When they are sued they may be grilled as to why they didn't show their skill with the truck even though they already had their DL.

:screwy::screwy::screwy::screwy::screwy::screwy::screwy::screwy:

[Guest nraforlife]

Naah, carry what you want. 22 or 50 its your choice. Just be able to HIT what you shoot at and NOT the baby in the stroller!

[Fadex]

That's the reason I qualified with the most difficult to control handgun that I own. I qualified with a Glock 27 and I carry a Kel-tec PF9 or my Kimber Eclipse Pro II. Just in case I ever have to use my carry firearm the argument that I couldnt control my carry firearm is pretty much mute when compared to what I qualified with.

[Guest bkelm18]

That's the reason I qualified with the most difficult to control handgun that I own. I qualified with a Glock 27 and I carry a Kel-tec PF9 or my Kimber Eclipse Pro II. Just in case I ever have to use my carry firearm the argument that I couldnt control my carry firearm is pretty much mute when compared to what I qualified with.

Controllability is pretty subjective. I don't think the prosecution or whatever is going to scrutinize the level of difficulty in shooting a Glock 27 vice a PF9.

[BigPoppa]

Controllability is pretty subjective. I don't think the prosecution or whatever is going to scrutinize the level of difficulty in shooting a Glock 27 vice a PF9.

So......qualify with a .500 S & W Magnum, then come back to us :lol:

[Reservoir Dog]

So.....following this same course of reasoning, one should retake their drivers test in every car they own or intend to drive right?

Probably not a bad idea. There are a lot more idiots driving cars that there are HCP holders. Extra driver training would do them a lot of good. I have had extra driver training over the years, and it has definitely made me more confident behind the wheel. I might not ever need to do a bootleg turn, or a reverse 180, but it is nice to know that I can.

Personally, I think BigPoppa's offer of additional training is a very good idea. Some of the people in my HCP class were scary. Their shooting and gunhandling skills were pathetic. It is an excellent idea to get some additional trigger time, with the same (or unfamiliar) handgun, and with a certified instructor present. I think it is a pretty good deal for $10.

[Fallguy]

Probably not a bad idea. There are a lot more idiots driving cars that there are HCP holders. Extra driver training would do them a lot of good. I have had extra driver training over the years, and it has definitely made me more confident behind the wheel. I might not ever need to do a bootleg turn, or a reverse 180, but it is nice to know that I can.

Personally, I think BigPoppa's offer of additional training is a very good idea. Some of the people in my HCP class were scary. Their shooting and gunhandling skills were pathetic. It is an excellent idea to get some additional trigger time, with the same (or unfamiliar) handgun, and with a certified instructor present. I think it is a pretty good deal for $10.

I am all for additional training. Of course more driver training makes you a better driver and more handgun training will make you better with handguns.

But if you simply did the same thing you did in your original DL test with a different car, that is really not additional training. In fact is not training at all, it simply demonstrating the same skill with a different make and model of the same tool. Which is pretty much the case here, a different handgun redoing the HCP requirements. But he admits this.

My whole point is I'm not really sure how this makes you more qualified to carry that weapon or less open to liability than someone who doesn't do this.

IMO the basic DOS Handgun Safety Course, is just that a basic course to show general handgun safety and use (in addition to the laws). It is by no means intended to be in depth firearms training. I'm not sure, but I think the course is really for those that may have never seen or handled a handgun before.

[Guest grimel]

Personally, I think BigPoppa's offer of additional training is a very good idea. Some of the people in my HCP class were scary. Their shooting and gunhandling skills were pathetic. It is an excellent idea to get some additional trigger time, with the same (or unfamiliar) handgun, and with a certified instructor present. I think it is a pretty good deal for $10.

The man where I took one class ran a HCP class through at the same time. He is so adamant about his students surviving the encounter he lets anyone come back and do the shoot with his current class when ever they change carry guns at no charge.

[Reservoir Dog]

I think we're getting hung up on what should be called training. It is a matter or semantics. Probably not the best word to be used in this situation.

Regardless, extra trigger time with your gun is a good thing, whether you call it training, or not. Also, having a certified instructor present that could diagnose shooting and handling issues, as well as answer any pertinent questions, is also a good thing. All for $10 (which is about what you would pay to rent a lane at an indoor range). Sounds like a good deal to me. YMMV.

I'm not sure, but I think the course is really for those that may have never seen or handled a handgun before.

I am not even sure it meets that criteria. The TN HCP class is pretty pathetic IMO. Any decent training course for handgun newbies should be 2 full days at the minimum.......and with a lot more range time. The current course is just......well.......:poop:. In addition to the HCP class, I think they should make people take the NRA Basic Pistol Shooting Course, and require you to submit both certificates when you apply for your HCP.

Edited December 18, 2008 by Reservoir Dog

[Fallguy]

I think we're getting hung up on what should be called training. It is a matter or semantics. Probably not the best word to be used in this situation.

Regardless, extra trigger time with your gun is a good thing, whether you call it training, or not. Also, having a certified instructor present that could diagnose shooting and handling issues, as well as answer any pertinent questions, is also a good thing. All for $10 (which is about what you would pay to rent a lane at an indoor range). Sounds like a good deal to me. YMMV.

I am not even sure it meets that criteria. The TN HCP class is pretty pathetic IMO. Any decent training course for handgun newbies should be 2 full days at the minimum.......and with a lot more range time. The current course is just......well.......:poop:. In addition to the HCP class, I think they should make people take the NRA Basic Pistol Shooting Course, and require you to submit both certificates when you apply for your HCP.

I agree extra trigger time is always good. But thinking you are some how more protected in a lawsuit because of it, well..........

As far as the safety class goes...I admit there is not much to it. But I personally don't think you should "have" to even take it. I don't think you should have to pay for the privilege of carrying a firearm when it should be a right. I think that if you are able to legally buy a handgun, you should be able to legally carry it without and further intervention by the state, but that is a topic for another discussion/thread.

[Reservoir Dog]

I don't think you should have to pay for the privilege of carrying a firearm when it should be a right.

Agreed. However, if they are going to require some sort of training class, it should at least be a something where people come away actually knowing what they are doing. The current class curriculum is not satisfactory in that regard.

[Fallguy]

Agreed. However, if they are going to require some sort of training class, it should at least be a something where people come away actually knowing what they are doing. The current class curriculum is not satisfactory in that regard.

I can't argue with that.

[Guest Guntrainer]

Dear Fallguy

The purpose of a motor vehicle does not include using it to take a life to preserve your own. Also, if you miss your parking spot you will not go to prison or lose your shirt in Civil Court.

BTW, the Tn Dept of Safety is now requiring info on the score, make, model, caliber, and serial number of the firearm used in the HCP Class.

Go to http://www.state.tn.us/safety/forms/HGschoolroster200862408.pdf for info.

[Fallguy]

Dear Fallguy

The purpose of a motor vehicle does not include using it to take a life to preserve your own. Also, if you miss your parking spot you will not go to prison or lose your shirt in Civil Court.

BTW, the Tn Dept of Safety is now requiring info on the score, make, model, caliber, and serial number of the firearm used in the HCP Class.

Go to http://www.state.tn.us/safety/forms/HGschoolroster200862408.pdf for info.

It may not be the purpose, but it sure has the potential to take a life, just as a firearm does. But the point of my argument is not which is more likely to take a life, but the amount of perceived civil protection you would have by certain actions or inactions. Also I'm sure there have been a fair amount of people lose their shirts resulting from civil action as the results of an auto accident.

As far as the info being required, this form is VERY new. It also being discussed in this thread. I got the same TFA e-mail as the rest of us.

[Fallguy]

I know this thread pretty much died, but. I was looking at DOS Handgun Safety Program Rules and rule 1340-2-3-.05(10) actually mentions qualifying with more than one handgun at the time you are taking the class.

So while the state may not require it or make a big deal out of it, they do acknowledge qualifying with more than one handgun.

So for $10 or whatever you school may charge, if it makes you feel better...go for it.

[Punisher84]

I caught this late, but did read through it and I think I might be able to clarify a few points.

1. It is not so much the gun as it is caliber. A prosecutor could take a .45acp and set it next to a .22 and make a pretty good argument to a jury about "controllability" and recklessness in using a "hi-power" round. Things of that nature. You could qualify with a .45 and carry anything below and be able to defend that pretty well.

2. The talk of "If it's a good shoot, it won't matter" is BS. There is always potential for a good shoot to turn bad. Anybody that keeps up with defensive shooting stories should know that.

3. It's simple insurance. BigPoppa did say this, but again it's 10 bucks or how ever much at different schools. You go qualify,shoot, whatever you want to call it and you get a document saying you did so. The thing I see with it is what would you rather have? A document saying you qualified in that caliber firearm or nothing while a prosecutor is accusing you of manslaughter because you were reckless in using a gun you didn't qualify with.

Remember this folks, what makes sense to us WILL NOT make sense to most jurors. Just my opinion on it.

[DaveTN]

It’s all smoke and mirrors.

If you find yourself in a criminal or civil trial; you have screwed up big time.

The gun, caliber, ammo, training score; sure any of that can be used; but it didn’t get you in that courtroom.

When I took my class the instructor stopped counting holes at 70%. Everyone got a score of 70%. He thought it might matter in a trial; I disagree; but it really isn’t important.

As far as retraining, I found it amusing that the state would not accept my LEO certification because it was too old; but there is no requirement for requalification on a renewal no matter how old it is.

Training is paramount. I think the pricing of it keeps it out of reach for many that need it; but that’s where local government needs to step up.

Not only is handgun training important but so is training on shooting scenario’s (Shoot/ don’t shoot). My biggest fear as an HCP holder (after surviving the initial encounter) is what other armed citizens in the area may do. Things are not always as they appear.

The law. We don’t know it; we don’t understand it, and we don’t have access to it.

As a former cop I’m use to knowing exactly what the law is and its interpretations by the local courts and prosecutors. Since I moved to Tennessee I don’t have that. Sure I have access to the written law itself, but that is only part of the answer when you are talking about something as important as the use of deadly force or the laws governing carry. No disrespect to the trainers here but most are not trained in this area that is obvious in some of the replies. As I have said before I would like to see seminars offered by local prosecutors and criminal defense attorneys.