As States Expand Gun Rights, the Police Object

[The Legion]

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/04/us/as-states-expand-gun-rights-police-join-opposition.html?partner=msft_msn&_r=0

 

 

GULFPORT, Miss. — Guns in bars. Guns in airports. Guns in day care centers and sports arenas. Conservative state lawmakers around the country are pressing to weaken an array of gun regulations, in some cases greatly expanding where owners can carry their weapons.

But the legislators are encountering stiff opposition from what has been a trusted ally: law enforcement.

In more than a dozen states with long traditions of robust support for gun ownership rights, and where legislatures have moved to relax gun laws during the past year, the local police have become increasingly vocal in denouncing the measures. They say the new laws expose officers to greater danger and prevent them from doing their jobs effectively.

“We are a gun society and we recognize that, but we should be writing gun laws that make us safer,” said Leonard Papania, the police chief in Gulfport, Miss., who opposes part of a new state law that creates exceptions to the rules for concealed-carry permits. “Do you want every incident on your street to escalate to acts of gun violence?”

Mississippi’s measure, signed into law in April and pushed mainly as an effort to allow worshipers in church to arm themselves, is one of several that have passed in recent months. West Virginia and Idaho have approved laws allowing people to carry concealed handguns without a permit or firearm training — and, in many cases, without a background check. Texas has given residents the right to carry handguns openly. Oklahoma appears set to pass a similar measure in the next several weeks.

During the past year state capitals have emerged as a fierce battleground when it comes to guns. Gun control groups have challenged and sometimes even outflanked the powerful National Rifle Association in the states, but gun rights advocates have won numerous victories in relaxing restrictions.

There has long been a tension between the interests of law enforcement and the efforts to roll back gun regulations, but the conflicts are becoming more frequent as gun laws are expanded, particularly in states with permissive policies. Police officers in Maine and Texas have described coming across people displaying their weapons near schools and libraries, daring anyone to call the police and challenge their newly won rights.

 

Several states, including Georgia, Arizona and Michigan, have enacted laws that prohibit the police from destroying firearms that have been used in crimes. Instead, the weapons must be sold to licensed dealers or to the public at auction.

 

Despite the current conflicts, police officers and gun rights advocates have long been largely on the same side of the national debate over guns. But police departments have insisted that gun owners be required to receive training, as their officers do, and that people with violent histories, who are more likely to clash with the police, be blocked from obtaining weapons. The recent legislation, including “constitutional carry laws” — which typically eliminate the police’s role in issuing permits or questioning people who are openly armed — has frayed the alliance.

“What is alarming to the police is that they have no power to ascertain the potential criminal background of an armed individual until a crime is committed, and by then it is too late,” said Ladd Everitt, spokesman for the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence, an advocacy group.

The objections to these laws are not only about officer safety. Law enforcement officials also argue that creating more exceptions to gun regulations will impede investigations. The discovery of an unpermitted weapon typically gives officers probable cause to conduct searches, but some of the new laws could take that option away. In some cases, this has upended longstanding political dynamics, with traditional law-and-order conservatives, who are championing the new gun laws, questioning the tactics of police officers as overly aggressive.

“I believe they’ve got some merit to their concerns,” said Ken Morgan, a Mississippi state representative who backed the state’s new law, which allows people to carry holstered weapons without a permit.

But Mr. Morgan, a Republican, added that the police were overstating how much the measures would affect the way they pursued investigations. “A lot of times they don’t consider their own discretion,” he said.

The N.R.A., which supports the new laws, said opponents of the measures sought to harm people’s ability to defend themselves.

“These laws simply protect and expand the ability of law-abiding citizens to exercise their constitutional right to self-protection,” said Jennifer Baker, an N.R.A. spokeswoman. “Gloom-and-doom predictions of Wild West scenarios in states with strong gun rights have proven time and again to be nothing more than scare tactics.”

 

In Mississippi, law enforcement officials said that they had learned of the new law only when it was heading toward passage in the State House of Representatives, and that attempts to negotiate the language in the bill — particularly the section expanding exceptions for concealed-carry permits — had been mostly unsuccessful.

The police said that N.R.A. members across the state had received fliers accusing law enforcement of allying with Michael R. Bloomberg, the former New York mayor who is one of the nation’s most visible gun control advocates. Another challenge for opponents was that the law, despite containing multiple parts, was widely identified as a church security measure. The success of such a law in a conservative state like Mississippi was practically preordained, they said.

Law enforcement officials in the state said the political power of the gun rights lobby had overwhelmed their calls for caution.

“We’re advocating the safety for our police officers, but on the other side you have the N.R.A. and other special interest groups that say, ‘If you’ll do this, we’ll endorse you and make you look good,’ ” Ken Winter, the executive director of the Mississippi Association of Chiefs of Police, said of his efforts at lobbying in the Legislature. “We don’t have anything to offer them other than good advice.”

Local law enforcement agencies opposed to enhancing gun possession rights have generally lost the recent legislative battles.

Maine enacted a law last year allowing people to carry concealed weapons without a permit or training, despite the objections of Michael Sauschuck, the police chief in Portland, the state’s largest city.

“It is absolutely ludicrous to me that we require people to go take a test to get a driver’s license, but we are allowing people to carry a deadly weapon on their person without any procedures regulating it,” Mr. Sauschuck said.

There have been some victories for the police, however.

Law enforcement officials in California last year helped win approval of a law that allows the police to seize weapons from someone for 21 days if a judge determines that person has the potential for violence. And the police in Ohio have so far stalled a bill that would allow people to carry guns inside police stations, airports and day care centers.

 

In Texas, where concealed handguns will be allowed in university classrooms beginning on Aug. 1, law enforcement officials won a surprise victory last year after Art Acevedo, the police chief in Austin, held a news conference where he was flanked by law enforcement leaders from across the state.

His message to conservative Republican lawmakers, who were seeking to limit police officers’ authority to question people with firearms as part of the state’s open-carry legislation, was blunt.

“You can’t be the party of law and order and not listen to your police chiefs,” Chief Acevedo said.

The Legislature ultimately approved the open-carry bill, which went into effect in January, but voted down the amendment curtailing the police’s power to ask questions.

 

Edited May 3, 2016 by washabra

[JAB]

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/04/us/as-states-expand-gun-rights-police-join-opposition.html?partner=msft_msn&_r=0

 

Maine enacted a law last year allowing people to carry concealed weapons without a permit or training, despite the objections of Michael Sauschuck, the police chief in Portland, the state’s largest city.

“It is absolutely ludicrous to me that we require people to go take a test to get a driver’s license, but we are allowing people to carry a deadly weapon on their person without any procedures regulating it,” Mr. Sauschuck said.

 

 

 

It is absolutely ludicrous to me that a public service official doesn't know the damn difference between a privilege (driving) and a right (self defense.)  I think it is ludicrous that some, such officials seem to believe that they are qualified to determine who should be allowed to be best equipped for self defense and who should not.  I also think it is ludicrous that this guy - who should know better than most - seems to be stupid enough to believe that forcing people to take a test, etc. before being allowed to exercise a right will stop criminals from carrying illegally and doing illegal things with the illegally carried weapons. 

[A.J. Holst]

Been a while since I took a drivers test, but a form with multi choice questions and a road test do not make for a safe, courteous and aware defensive drivers...

[DWARREN123]

Idiots at it again with their brainless mouthings!

[leroy]

The policia are goin to ultimately have to accept the fact that "Constitutional Rights" are rights that work everywhere...  What is being discussed now is exactly why im no fan of police forces and police chiefs... They answer to no one, and some of them have a strange view of who they are and who we are....

 

leroy...

[JAB]

The policia are goin to ultimately have to accept the fact that "Constitutional Rights" are rights that work everywhere...  What is being discussed now is exactly why im no fan of police forces and police chiefs... They answer to no one, and some of them have a strange view of who they are and who we are....

 

leroy...

 

There also seems to at least sometimes be a divide between the opinions of rank and file officers and these guys who are often more politicians than police officers when it comes to the right of the average citizen to be best equipped for self defense.  Unfortunately, it is these politicians who are the mouth pieces and who end up appearing on the news when the subject comes up - and, even more unfortunately, who drive policy and get to present their opinion as the official stance of all officers in their department.

[Jonnin]

this is easily solved.

1) write laws that give the police 5 shot .22 short revolvers.

2) Listen to their counter arguments that they would be outgunned or have too slow a reload time or whatever.   Nod and agree.

3) Explain that when the police are not around, citizens face the exact same situations (with less gear, training, and backup) and need the same (or better) firepower as the cops.  

4) Dare them to say another word.

 

.

[DaveTN]

Why is the guy who wrote this story blaming cops; did cops start writing laws in Mississippi?

Cops are as diverse a group as any. It’s usually made up BS when people start making claims about “Police Officers” or “Police Departments”.

If the legislators are afraid of passing laws, it isn’t because of cops. It’s either because they don’t want to or they know they won’t get reelected if they do.

“The campus police chiefs of the University System of Georgia” My gosh, that has to be a big scary group.

[Obiwan]

 

[...] Law enforcement officials in California last year helped win approval of a law that allows the police to seize weapons from someone for 21 days if a judge determines that person has the potential for violence.[...]

 

I see pre-crime has arrived. 

[Pain103]

 You start hearing opinions from department heads you have to remember they are basically politicians. They spew almost the same thing.

[Sidecarist]

There is a misconception that the police are about "crime prevention" as a primary misssion. Not so... they are "law enforcement" officers. If crime is prevented it is a byproduct of law breakers being brought before the courts and punished.

Of course our courts don't punish now because it hurts the criminals feelings etc. No attention is given to the VICTIMS feelings!

By the way the crime rate amongst legal gun owners is extremely low. Far lower than it is amungst politicians...

We need to start training the populace on how to safely handle all deadly weapons they have in the home. We should start in the kitchen with the knives, and iron skillets!

[Grand Torino]

this is easily solved.

1) write laws that give the police 5 shot .22 short revolvers.

2) Listen to their counter arguments that they would be outgunned or have too slow a reload time or whatever.   Nod and agree.

3) Explain that when the police are not around, citizens face the exact same situations (with less gear, training, and backup) and need the same (or better) firepower as the cops.  

4) Dare them to say another word.

 

.

While you are betting that common sense would prevail I'm not sure it would. If there was a healthy dose of common sense left in this country Obama would have never been elected to a second term....The Hildabeast would be in prison instead of running for president, illegals wouldn't have more rights than citizens and on and on and on.

[K191145]

 You start hearing opinions from department heads you have to remember they are basically politicians. They spew almost the same thing.

BINGO.

 

 

 

Ken Winter, the executive director of the Mississippi Association of Chiefs of Police.

 

Chiefs always claim they speak for all LEO's, and it's not likely a LEO will challenge the Chief if he/she wants to keep their job. Many Chiefs are just politicians and will follow the script the current Mayor writes for them. I always said Surpas had a string on his back so Bredesen and Dean could make his mouth move while they said what they wanted him to say.

Now, there's some exceptions like the Chief of Detroit.

Edited May 4, 2016 by K191145

[JAB]

Why is the guy who wrote this story blaming cops; did cops start writing laws in Mississippi?

Cops are as diverse a group as any. It’s usually made up BS when people start making claims about “Police Officers” or “Police Departments”.

If the legislators are afraid of passing laws, it isn’t because of cops. It’s either because they don’t want to or they know they won’t get reelected if they do.

“The campus police chiefs of the University System of Georgia” My gosh, that has to be a big scary group.

 

No, the cops aren't writing laws.  However, the problem is that legislators apparently are passing pro-carry laws and the cops (well, these chiefs, etc. anyhow) are criticizing them and fighting against the passage of such laws with stupid statements like,

 

“We are a gun society and we recognize that, but we should be writing gun laws that make us safer,” said Leonard Papania, the police chief in Gulfport, Miss., who opposes part of a new state law that creates exceptions to the rules for concealed-carry permits. “Do you want every incident on your street to escalate to acts of gun violence?”

 

I mean, c'mon, that is the exact, same kind of, "It will be the Wild West and there will be blood in the streets if we allow people to carry - people will be shooting each other over parking spaces," and "O'Charley's will run red with the blood of the innocent if we allow people to carry where alcohol is served," bullcrap that antis around here spout whenever there is a proposed, pro-carry change to Tennessee law.  It sounds to me like this dude is an anti-gun politician who opposes the idea that the average citizen should have a legal right to be at all times equipped to defend himself or herself with a firearm and who is using the connection his office has to real cops to give legitimacy to his anti-gun argument.  I mean, geez, the above quote could just have easily have come from Diane Feinstein or a Brady spokesman.  In fact, it would have seemed much less out of place coming from one of those sources that it does coming from a police official in a Southern state like Mississippi.  Further, judging by the article, he ain't the only one.

Edited May 4, 2016 by JAB

[Worriedman]

The policia are goin to ultimately have to accept the fact that "Constitutional Rights" are rights that work everywhere...  What is being discussed now is exactly why im no fan of police forces and police chiefs... They answer to no one, and some of them have a strange view of who they are and who we are....

 

leroy...

No they will not have to do any such thing. (The policia are goin to ultimately have to accept the fact that "Constitutional Rights" are rights that work everywhere...)

The Police State has courts and jails, they get to take your money on the side of the road for no reason other than you have it in your possession...refusing to honor their oaths and suppressing Liberty are just what the Chiefs do these days.