Spencer Carbine Model 1860

[Pete123]

Below are pics of my Spencer Carbine Model 1860, manufactured by Burnside.

 

This weapon was a lever action repeater with 7 rounds of lead slinging awesomeness.  As with all fine arms, this one is equipped with a bayonet, though I'm not sure when it would be used  when opponents were using single shot muzzle loaders.

 

This was the weapon used by cavalry in the Indian Wars until 1873. 

 

Below is part of an article from American Rifleman.

 

"On a more serious note, simply put, the .52-cal. M1860 Spencer carbine was the most advanced carbine in service during the American Civil War.

 

The tubular magazine, located in the buttstock, held seven rimfire cartridges. Lowering the operating lever, which also served as the trigger guard, ejected the fired case and automatically fed the next round into the chamber from the magazine. 

 

The firepower of the Spencer carbines was apparent in the action at Parker’s Store in the densely wooded area of the Wilderness on the morning on May 5, 1864. The 500 members of the Fifth New York Cavalry dismounted and formed a loose skirmish line, and there they were attacked by a division of Confederate infantry. For three hours the men of the Fifth held off the Southern attacks until they started to run out of ammunition for their Spencers, which forced the Federals to pull back. The Confederates opposing them believed that they had been fighting an entire brigade. The Fifth New York suffered about 80 casualties in the action.

 

By September 1864, 9,000 Spencer carbines were in field service for the Union, and they were highly regarded. The field reports from 10 officers of the Fourth U.S. Cavalry rated the Spencer carbine the best arm in cavalry service. Brevet Maj. Gen. James Wilson felt that the Spencers were the best firearms ever put into the hands of the soldier. He stated that the Spencer “excels all others in use in durability, rapidity of fire, and general effectiveness.”

 

On June 27, 1864, the Burnside Rifle Co. entered into a contract with the Ordnance Dept. to manufacture 30,500 .52-cal. M1860 Spencer carbines with deliveries completed by Aug. 31, 1865. 

 

The M1865 Spencer carbine was the standard in post-war service and remained in service into the middle 1870s.

 

Spencers were replaced by the .45-70 Gov’t Model 1873 Springfield carbines

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 1, 2016 by Pete123

[seez52]

nice, looks to be in good shape.

[gregintenn]

Cool! I almost bought one of these at a show a few years back. You can tell I'm a fool because I said "almost". They're a very interesting and well designed piece of American history, and one you don't see everyday.

[1gewehr]

Nice carbine.
A little more info; yours is a model 1865 as evidenced by the marking on the receiver above the breech. Model 1860s did not have that stamping. Also the Stabler magazine cutoff was a late addition. The serrations on the magazine tube lock also say M1865.

Cavalry carbine did not have bayonets. Your bayonet looks to be correct for the m1860 musket.

Center-fire breechblocks are available along with new brass. It launches a 350gr bullet at about 1100fps with fffg black powder. Edited May 1, 2016 by 1gewehr

[Pete123]

Thanks for the info gewehr.   The pics don't show the bayonet attached to the gun very well.  It's probably frozen in place now, though can be removed.  It has two brackets which are tightened with screws.  One of the brackets on this one is broken.

 

I have several of these Civil War era guns and have struggled with whether to shoot them because of the age and historical significance.  I shoot all my WW1 and WW2 guns.  

 

For those of you that may want a deeper dive into the Spencer Carbine, here is a link to the article in The American Rifleman.

 

http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2013/7/23/excels-all-others-the-spencer-carbine/

[DT INC.]

Very nice. I may be wrong but isn't this what Morgan Freeman's character used on the movie Unforgiven? Edited May 2, 2016 by DT INC.

[Moped]

Wasn't the .45-70 Gov’t Model 1873 Springfield carbine at single shot?  I think I read somewhere that the Ordnance Department was run by imbeciles that didn't know their backsides from a hole in the ground.  They felt that repeaters wasted ammunition, so they took a bunch of old Springfield rifles left over from the Civil War and converted them to breech loaders and cut them to carbine length.  It was probably cheaper, but a step backwards from much better and more modern weapons like the Spencer.  I believe the 7th Cav at the Battle of Little Bighorn was armed with such single shot rifles.

[Jonnin]

Wasn't the .45-70 Gov’t Model 1873 Springfield carbine at single shot?  I think I read somewhere that the Ordnance Department was run by imbeciles that didn't know their backsides from a hole in the ground.  They felt that repeaters wasted ammunition, so they took a bunch of old Springfield rifles left over from the Civil War and converted them to breech loaders and cut them to carbine length.  It was probably cheaper, but a step backwards from much better and more modern weapons like the Spencer.  I believe the 7th Cav at the Battle of Little Bighorn was armed with such single shot rifles.

 

Yes, and the generals actually thought the single shot would prevent the men from wasting ammo so  they didn't need to carry as much of it!

 

The 45-70 trapdoor was a POS that was behind the curve.  Its probably one of the top 3 reasons Custer got his butt kicked -- the natives had lever guns.

 

I have a trapdoor in serviceable condition but have not shot it.   Its heavy, it shoots a ballistically challenged round (modern know-how can correct this somewhat, but at the time it was about like a catapult), its slow to reload,  and was a total disaster.   Meanwhile the repeating rifle was winning the west.

 

The rifle seen here is superior in every way.

Edited May 1, 2016 by Jonnin

[gregintenn]

Thanks for the info gewehr.   The pics don't show the bayonet attached to the gun very well.  It's probably frozen in place now, though can be removed.  It has two brackets which are tightened with screws.  One of the brackets on this one is broken.

 

I have several of these Civil War era guns and have struggled with whether to shoot them because of the age and historical significance.  I shoot all my WW1 and WW2 guns.  

 

For those of you that may want a deeper dive into the Spencer Carbine, here is a link to the article in The American Rifleman.

 

http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2013/7/23/excels-all-others-the-spencer-carbine/

I'd have to shoot it!

[Pete123]

Woo Hoo!  I was able to get the bayonet off of my Spencer.  While I love bayonets, I think the Spencer looks better without it.

[Jonnin]

was there anything in the stock?   My trapdoor had a place for 2 rounds of ammo.  

[Pete123]

No, no place for rounds in the stock like a trap door.  

 

That said, the tubular magazine in the butt stock held seven rounds.  Toward the end of the Civil War, the government starting purchasing what was called the Stabler Cut-Off Attachment.  You can see one on my gun above - it's the little thing in front of the trigger on the underside of the gun.

 

It made the gun a single shot gun with spare rounds in the stock.  

 

In the same way that current military leadership doesn't want soldiers wasting ammo with full auto, military leadership back then felt like a repeater wasted ammo.

[Pete123]

A couple of folks have made comments about shooting this gun.  This might generate some interesting discussion.

 

Many people shoot these old guns and there is no right or wrong answer here.  I usually consider guns to be used and don't have any modern gun safe queens.

 

I've decided against shooting most of my Civil War guns for a couple of reasons. The first is that chances are good that the gun will be damaged, which impacts both monetary and historical value.   This gun pictured is in great shape.  There is little rust and the bore is bright.  And, it's roughly 150 years old.  Time has an impact on everything.  In the case of this gun, I think the metal would be fine.  

 

The stock is a different issue, especially the butt stock.  Keep in mind that the butt stock has a .52 caliber magazine and place for the magazine.  There is a crack already that would like to turn into a big piece of the stock coming off.

 

I've disassembled much of the gun for restoration.  It's looking like the chances of cracking the butt stock are high enough that I'll leave it attached to the receiver.

 

The other reason is that I don't really view these Civil War guns as mine.  I'm holding and enjoying them until time to pass them on to future generations.  If I can tie any of these to TN, I'll probably donate it to the state museum in downtown Nashville.

 

Be interested to see what other folks say.  Again, no right or wrong answers here - a lot of folks shoot them and a lot don't.

[Sidecarist]

Exercise your best judgment. It can be a noble pass time preserving these fine weapons for the future. You must be comfortable with it you are maintaining these for the future. I gladly defer to your judgment.

[Danger Rane]

That's pretty cool!

[nightrunner]

That old girl has done her fair share of work over the years. She has earned the right to hang on a wall or sit in the back corner of the safe. No need to batter her up now.

If you were 150years old, you wouldn't want to work anymore either :)

[1gewehr]

My $.02, and worth every penny!
I have a couple of Spencer's. They are a great design. The only real flaw is that they are very sensitive to cartridge length for reliable feeding.
I have a M1865 that I shoot on rare occasions. To me, I really feel a connection with my ancestors when I shoot their firearms. That said, I would never try to use it in reenacting, hunting, or other strenuous exercise.

On the Trapdoor v Spencer decision, the drawback of the Spencer is its cartridge. It's a short, fat rimfire with a trajectory like a softball.
The 45-70 is considerably more powerful, and even the early 405gr load had a much longer effective range. Troops liked the Spencer, but wanted more range in the western states.
It would take adoption of the 1903 Springfield before US troops were armed with a true magazine-fed rifle. Anyone who has tried reloading a Krag magazine knows it really doesn't qualify.

[Jäger Kämpfer]

Beautiful rifle! One of these has been on my bucket list since I was about 11, after reading The First Fast Draw by Louis Lamour, in which the Spencer was prominently featured. Something about older guns like yours make me feel all nostalgic. :drool: