Thoughts on Armor?

[timcar86]

I've been giving a lot of thought to wearing armor in a worst-case scenario. I usually have an AR in the vehicle with me and I recently picked up a Haley Strategic D3CR chest rig for a class that I'll be taking in June so decided that the chest rig should accompany the AR in my vehicle. I'm guessing if I have time to get a rifle out of my car, I could take an extra few seconds to put on a chest rig, right? So that brings me to to armor. If my rig has armor, why wouldn't I want that? When it comes down to it, any fight is a competition and a gunfight is no different. Why wouldn't I give myself every advantage?

 

Anyway, thoughts?

[Omega]

Chest rigs are fine for classes and such, but unless it's a SHTF scenario you will likely never get the chance to get it on before it's over.  And if you are ever in a rifle fight you will need Level IV armor which is heavy and bulky, otherwise the rounds will go right through Level IIIA soft body armor.  It probably won't hurt to carry it though, since it's better to have and not need than the other way around.

[kcruisin]

Level III vests can be found fairly cheap on e-bay, professionals refresh them every 5 years.
New riffle plate vests front and rear, can be had for around $150. I've been tempted to get one.

[Dolomite_supafly]

Here is my take on armor. No soft armor will stop a rifle round, period. But if you look at what most police officers face you will see what you are most likely to face and that is pistol calibers.

 

If you are wanting plates there are some things to take into consideration. First is what are you going to be doing while you are wearing armor. If you are going to be hoofing it I would suggest the lightest armor you can afford and for most that is ceramic. There are hard armor plates that float but they are expensive compared to ceramic. The down sides to ceramic is they are thick, they are brittle and some cannot take multiple hits. If you are working in confined spaces like vehicles then steel is a viable alternative because they are generally less than 1/2 the thickness of a typical ceramic plate. The downside of steel plates is they are heavy compared to ceramics. But as far as actual performance they are comparable at everything but CQB distances. And as far as protection per dollar you cannot beat steel. It is possible to get adequate steel plates for $65 now. Add a spall coating and it will be great.

 

I have found that once you get a front and rear ceramic plate on your carrier then your two layers of magazines and water or small pack and you end up being thicker than you are wider. And that can make getting into and out of a vehicle very difficult. Doing menial tasks can also become a problem when you are twice as thick as you normally are.

 

And with the legislation coming for them now might be the time to buy soft armor. The steel plate would be easy to say it is just a target but soft armor can only be used as soft armor.

 

Something else to consider is a "in conjunction" setup. They can reduce weight while giving you as much protection as a level 4 plate. What they are designed to do is destroy the bullet as it passed then let your soft armor catch the fragments. They are generally not as safe as level 4 but it is way better than a level 3 hard plate. I will be running level 4 plates with level 3A soft armor behind it. It should be like a level 4+.

 

And finally, I would NEVER recommend it I have tested floor tile as a viable ceramic plate. I took two 1/4" thick ceramic floor tile and put a 1/2" rubber pacer to give it some standoff. I put that in a carboard box then covered that with a t-shirt. I shot it at 25 yards with 22LR, 9mm, 45 ACP and 5.56. All of them were stopped by the t-shirt. I ran out of test plates by the time I got to testing 7.62x39 but I suspect it would have went right through. Like I said I would never use it but if you were in need of protection and had nothing it will work better than nothing.

 

And something else, if you are buying plates you might as well get a helmet too. They protect the most important weapon of all, your brain. I run a level three helmet.

[Chucktshoes]

The road is a a strange and sometimes dangerous place. You never know what the day might call for.

[Danger Rane]

I certainly think it is worth having a set or two. If you haven't already, check out ar500armor.com (they always have 15-20% off on Black Friday)

In addition to the positives that Dolomite mentioned about steel plates, another big plus to me is they don't really require much upkeep/inspections/ or special handling. When I was in the military we had to have our ceramic plates x-rayed 2-3 times a year to identify any cracks or deficiencies. While I don't think anyone would ever intentionally drop their plates, I do remember it being common to find fractures on the bottoms and corners of the plates from them getting repeatedly set down too hard or tossing around in a kitbag. Nowadays I don't have access to an X-ray nor the $$$ to spend on replacing ceramics, so it's steel plates for me.

If you are not wanting to lock yourself into a designated heavy kit you could run a slick plate carrier with a "rack" setup over it to hold your mags, med kit, ect. That way if you don't feel the need for that much protection or need to go overland you could drop (cache) the plate carrier and still have your lightweightish setup to throw on.

[Jamie Jackson]

I think having the armor is sound thinking Tim.

 

Dolomite made some very good points. The majority of incoming rounds we may take during "normal times" would most likely be handgun rounds...but those other times? Rifle rated plates would be high on my list to have.

 

Unless it's a truly bad situation, grid down and SHTF scenario, it's not highly likely we would have the time to access our kit before the dust settles...but "what if?". And it's the "what if?" we need to be prepared for imho. btw...a ballistic helmet makes a lot of sense as well.

 

I have a set of steel plates in a Condor carrier (Thank for Dolo's recommendation on the Condor) that you can try out and see what you think as far as the weight goes.

We picked them up from Maingun at a great deal back in '14. There is a thread on here about the PIA Linex of Knoxville was in getting them coated...so I would purchase coated steel and save yourself the hassle if you can.

 

Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it...and if politics continue down the path we're heading we may have a challenge in even purchasing armor.

 

If I had the extra bucks I would look into one of these:

http://www.ar500armor.com/ar500-armor-micro-plate-carrier-w-armor-and-pouches.html#.VyHkMXqncpU

[Omega]

The road is a a strange and sometimes dangerous place. You never know what the day might call for.

That's a sleeper compartment right?  In that rig I would carry my 10.5" barreled 300Blk pistol, you could swing it around, in the cab even, without bumping the muzzle on everything.  Heck I might even replace all that padding with Kevlar, or at least some of the lower portions; that back cover would make a great ballistic shield if layered in Kevlar.

[Chucktshoes]

That's a sleeper compartment right? In that rig I would carry my 10.5" barreled 300Blk pistol, you could swing it around, in the cab even, without bumping the muzzle on everything. Heck I might even replace all that padding with Kevlar, or at least some of the lower portions; that back cover would make a great ballistic shield if layered in Kevlar.

Honestly, it doesn't normally travel with me. We moved recently and because of issues with the new place our stuff was going to sit in a pod for a week or two while I was away and we waited for the house to be ready. I decided to throw it in the truck for this trip out. Safer with me than "protected" by a padlock. Not the most valuable item, but it is the one with the most danger in the wrong hands. Edited April 28, 2016 by Chucktshoes

[10-Ring]

It's way down on my list but a great option if you have plenty of other supplies and can afford it.

[peejman]

Check this stuff out....   http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/research/a20601/metal-foam-stops-bullets/

 

Interesting technology.

[Atom Tactical]

Hey timcar! As a former Detroit cop I've been shot at alot...I would say lol but it's really not funny...I can have my plate carrier on in just a few seconds...I have the ceramic military plates front and back...rated at 7.62 x 51 / 7.62 x 39 which will also stop the 5.56 NATO round...I also have the steel AR plates with front, back & side plates...I train with the ceramic on...Personally I carry rig with me just because...I'll tell you the same thing I tell my students...What ever works for you and what you are most comfortable with, use it...just because someone has plates won't make you any better or safer...My advice to you is, if you're not training with them on DON'T TRY TO FIGHT WITH THEM ON...I have tested and use all of my stuff over and over and over, this is how I find out what works for me...Use all your stuff over and over then take what works for you and run with it...If you are set on taking you rig I suggest you train with it and get comfortable with it on...Ware it around the house all day, make it a part of you so when you need to put it on a get to work, it will fell as natural as the shirt on your back...There is so much more I could tell you but the very best advice I can give...is...Train like a boxer, a 12 round fight is only 36 minutes long (actual fighting time)...but a higher level boxer will train for 5 months 4 hours a day for the fight...at 5 days a week x 4 hrs a day = 20hrs a week of training now, times that by 5 months = 400hrs which =s 24,000 minutes for a 36 minute fight...THAT MY FRIEND IS HOW YOU WIN A FIGHT...I myself train (shoot) on average 3 days a week 6 hours each day sometime more never less...USE YOU EQUIPMENT, MAKE IT SECOND NATURE TO HAVE IT IN YOUR HANDS AND ON YOUR BODY

 

AKA The Greek 

[JohnC]

@timcar86 what did you finally decide to go with?

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[timcar86]

5 hours ago, JohnC said:

@timcar86 what did you finally decide to go with?

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Well, that's complicated. I mentioned that I have a D3CR so I was looking for something that was going to be compatible. I finally decided on a Mission Spec EOC. Combine that with the Rigit Kit and I was able to merge the two very nicely. For armor I went with AR500 front and back. It's only about 20 pounds total with all my mags and trauma kit so I was happy with that. I wore it for most of a carbine class with Tiger McKee until the heat forced me to go without it for the rest of the day. Overall, I'm happy with what I ended up with. It's a relatively small rig but contains enough of what I was looking for.

 

Edited June 26, 2016 by timcar86

[A.J. Holst]

How was your class with Tiger?

[JohnC]

Well, that's complicated. I mentioned that I have a D3CR so I was looking for something that was going to be compatible. I finally decided on a Mission Spec EOC. Combine that with the Rigit Kit and I was able to merge the two very nicely. For armor I went with AR500 front and back. It's only about 20 pounds total with all my mags and trauma kit so I was happy with that. I wore it for most of a carbine class with Tiger McKee until the heat forced me to go without it for the rest of the day. Overall, I'm happy with what I ended up with. It's a relatively small rig but contains enough of what I was looking for.

 

Nice rig! When I get home, I'll take a closer look at your setup.

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[timcar86]

4 hours ago, Gotthegoods said:

How was your class with Tiger?

Amazing as always. That was my 4th class with him as I try to get down there at least once a year. I've taken all of his handgun classes and this was my first carbine class with him. It was actually a handgun/carbine combo class so working with both was a lot of fun.

[timcar86]

4 hours ago, JohnC said:

Nice rig! When I get home, I'll take a closer look at your setup.

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In case anyone was wondering, here's the price breakdown. Keep in mind, AR500 now has an 11 week lead time on all armor.

D3CR                                      $180.00

Haley Strategic Flat Pack       $135.00

EOC                                        $151.00

Rigit Kit                                   $49.00

AR500 Front Curved 8x10     $80.00

AR500 Back Flat 8x10           $60.00

           

Total                                        $655.00

[dcloudy777]

Instead of a "chest rig", think about a plate carrier.  Basically it's chest rig that holds rifle plates. 

[shotgunshooter]

Resurrecting this thread to see if anyone uses a minimalist rig. I'm currently looking at the PIG Brigandine.

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[gjohnsoniv]

Yes, I  do. Spiritus Systems has a really nice looking rig that I'm going to order at some point that seems to be really modular. 

[Omega]

I'm not much into external plate carriers anymore, though I have been through a few.  Currently I have a NOC Concealment System which does have an external portion if you need to go from level IIIa to level IV (plates).  I use SPEAR level IV plates in the carrier whenever I want to go observe some training with aerial gunnery.

 

[JohnC]

12 minutes ago, Omega said:

I'm not much into external plate carriers anymore, though I have been through a few.  Currently I have a NOC Concealment System which does have an external portion if you need to go from level IIIa to level IV (plates).  I use SPEAR level IV plates in the carrier whenever I want to go observe some training with aerial gunnery.

 

Those look good.

Might have to check those out....  

[shotgunshooter]

Yes, I  do. Spiritus Systems has a really nice looking rig that I'm going to order at some point that seems to be really modular. 

Quality wise who's up there? I know mayflower is a big name but I will be balling on a budget when I grab some plates. I was thinking SKD or Condor to start out with. It'll be a couple months but I think I'll be in the market for something sub $150. What options would that leave me with? I am currently researching carriers.

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[gjohnsoniv]

Don't personally know anything about SKD but I've yet to hear anything bad about them. Some people will say Condor will be fine if you can look at it before you buy but others say don't waste your money.  Mayflower will probably out of your price range unless you find a used one but they're built more around the ar platform than ak. Exception coming to mind being the Gen V which has inserts for 308, ar,and ak. Spiritus would be in the price range but again they don't have anything yet for AK magazines. You could probably get an HSGI AO chest rig as well under that price range. The last thing that comes to mind is the Extreme Gear Labs VOCR or the Haley Strategic chest rig, which is more or less the same thing. All of the above are also compatible with Swift Clips that you see on some plate carriers so they can be stand alone or attached directly.