OpenCarry.org: "Is it legal to resist a civil rights violation?"

[molonlabetn]

This one has been getting really interesting. I'd like to see what some of ya'll think: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum7/2682-1.html

This thread was initiated by another, here: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum52/2469-1.html

Both get a several posters rather heated (including me), and a few even a bit rude. Some of you will possibly disagree with my position, I can accept that. Bear in mind that I have a very positive and supportive position with regard to Law-Enforcement and police officers, just not the few bad apples which are discussed in those threads.

The recent Castle Doctrine legislation which passed here in TN bears some negative liability, related to some of the extreme positions in these threads, in terms of defending one-self from a LEO.

[TGO David]

I'd think that you better have a really damn good lawyer if you get into a confrontation with a police officer over pretty much anything. Beyond that, I'd say compliance is the best practice unless you feel that you are in serious fear for your life... and even then you're probably going to be up feces creek without a paddle.

Just my cheerfully pessimistic view of things.

[molonlabetn]

If it ever gets so bad that police officers are uniformly a barrier to the liberty or existence of myself or loved-ones, contrary to the law or my rights, I'm sure that having a lawyer will be the least of any of our problems.

In the more likely cases, only a fool would react violently or escalate an encounter with a LEO. However, anyone who would not attempt to retain their rights through diplomatic means, does not deserve them in the first place.

There's a difference between being stubborn, and having a back-bone.

[TGO David]

I concur.

[saintsfanbrian]

Anybody see V is for Vendetta?

I finally got to watch it this weekend. Not a bad movie and the end is what I would like to think would happen if the American citizens actually stood up in formidable numbers and "marched" on Washington D.C. or their local State Capitals.

Watch it if you haven't. I know it is liberal propaganda to some degree (banning homosexuality and all) but there is a good moral there.

[Guest Hyaloid]

I'll throw my hat into the ring.

After reading the attached thread, I think I get the jist of the conversation.

Under our current way of life, if my civil rights were being abused during an encounter with an overzealous LEO, I would likely comply with their orders to the best of my ability, while informing them of my desires in a peaceful fashion.

I would then sue the living bejesus out of them, and try and make the system correct the wrongs.

Is it right? No. Is is unfair? Yes. But, in today's society, unless the officer is wearing a black mask, no uniform, and we are alone in a dark alley, and he is beating me to a pulp, if I fire on an LEO who is being overly forceful, a jury will likely side with the officer, as will the court of public opinion.

As we exist today, the time to fight if you are so inclined is in the courtroom. Martyrdom now is not the way to go. I have a responsibility to liberty and to justice as a citizen, but you have to fight it in the correct manner. But, I have responsibilties other than those of an American citizen. I have a responsibility to provide for my wife and my family.

Would I ever fight? You bet. But, escalating over an authorized search and siezure or illegal detention to the point that we are in a lethal force scenario would not be my choice. We would have to be in a pretty bad place as a society before I would reach my breaking point, and I realize that everyone has something to risk, but I'll not risk everything for nothing.

Submitted humbly of course.

[The Rabbi]

I dont understand the issue. If you are carrying openly and an officer demands to see your permit, you are required to show it.

TN Code 39-17-1351:

The permittee shall have the permit in the holder's immediate possession at all times when carrying a handgun and shall display the permit on demand of a law enforcement officer.

You must have your permit on your person at all times when carrying a handgun, Open or concealed.

But if you are just walking on the street the police have no right to stop and ask for ID. There was a very good video on the Web put out by the ACLU (of all people) that talks about this kind of issue.

[Branket]

I dont understand the issue. If you are carrying openly and an officer demands to see your permit, you are required to show it.

TN Code 39-17-1351:

But if you are just walking on the street the police have no right to stop and ask for ID. There was a very good video on the Web put out by the ACLU (of all people) that talks about this kind of issue.

I believe the real issue is if you are carrying legally and the officer wants to disarm you during a time when he has no real reason to disarm you. I could be interpreting this wrong as well though.

[molonlabetn]

I have no problem identifying myself. I don't think that anyone who carries would, especially in this state, where it is required.

The issue is when a LEO happens to see that you are carrying, and for no articulable reason tries to disarm or arrest you. There is a debate going on regarding what the proper (or most reasonable) response should be, and where the line is.

[saintsfanbrian]

If a police officer is trying to harrass you, get name, badge number and precinct. Comply with their demands as long as they are lawful demands. A police officer telling you to give him a BJ is not a lawful demand. A police officer asking for your permit and your firearm is lawful.

[Guest Hyaloid]

...A police officer asking for your permit and your firearm is lawful.

That's the kicker, some would argue that asking for your firearm is UNLAWFUL.

[saintsfanbrian]

The question becomes, what is unlawful about their asking you for it. If they take it, that is seizure and would be unlawful.

I think a lot of this would depend on the scenario. I am walking down Beale Street minding my own business and Johnny Law decides to hassle me for no reason, no knowledge of a gun on my person or a permit. He comes up and starts patting me down. This would be a violation of my rights as I am in a place where I have a lawful right to be and was committing NO crime. Under those circumstances, I would still comply with the officers orders all the while trying to find witnesses and getting as much information about the officer as possible.

I agree, I would much rather fight this in court where I can show up as a good citizen that is law abiding against a police officer who was in the wrong rather than being Johnny Bravo and becoming a nutcase that was looking for a fight.

[molonlabetn]

The question becomes, what is unlawful about their asking you for it. If they take it, that is seizure and would be unlawful.

I think a lot of this would depend on the scenario. I am walking down Beale Street minding my own business and Johnny Law decides to hassle me for no reason, no knowledge of a gun on my person or a permit. He comes up and starts patting me down. This would be a violation of my rights as I am in a place where I have a lawful right to be and was committing NO crime. Under those circumstances, I would still comply with the officers orders all the while trying to find witnesses and getting as much information about the officer as possible.

I agree, I would much rather fight this in court where I can show up as a good citizen that is law abiding against a police officer who was in the wrong rather than being Johnny Bravo and becoming a nutcase that was looking for a fight.

Exactly... that is the crux of the matter. And I agree with your statement, when it comes to simple questioning.

The big question is, where do you draw the line where it is no longer tolerable to comply with un-lawful demands?

[The Rabbi]

When there is a direct and immediate threat to my life where complying would put my life and/or safety immediately in danger.

Other than that I cannot think of any course of action better than what Saintsfanbrian has proposed.

[Guest Hyaloid]

The question becomes, what is unlawful about their asking you for it. If they take it, that is seizure and would be unlawful.

I think a lot of this would depend on the scenario. I am walking down Beale Street minding my own business and Johnny Law decides to hassle me for no reason, no knowledge of a gun on my person or a permit. He comes up and starts patting me down. This would be a violation of my rights as I am in a place where I have a lawful right to be and was committing NO crime. Under those circumstances, I would still comply with the officers orders all the while trying to find witnesses and getting as much information about the officer as possible.

I agree, I would much rather fight this in court where I can show up as a good citizen that is law abiding against a police officer who was in the wrong rather than being Johnny Bravo and becoming a nutcase that was looking for a fight.

I certainly agree. I think I was thinking of this issue from an open carry standpoint, or the officer knows that you are carrying. The mere presence of the firearm does not constitute probable cause, and it's seizure is illegal. My earlier post echos your sentiment of fighting it in court, rather than on the streets.

[DaveTN]

Things happen fast. If a Police Officer wants you disarmed he will not hold a probable cause hearing.

Don’t do something stupid that could destroy your future or even take your life.

I didn’t read the linked threads, but to answer the originally question… No, it is not legal to resist a civil rights violation. Because until a Judge or Jury rules; there is no civil rights violation. It’s just resisting arrest and you will go to jail.

[towerclimber37]

I have no problem identifying myself. I don't think that anyone who carries would, especially in this state, where it is required.

The issue is when a LEO happens to see that you are carrying, and for no articulable reason tries to disarm or arrest you. There is a debate going on regarding what the proper (or most reasonable) response should be, and where the line is.

Basically, you're scenario would go like this...

you're walking down the street, and by chance, an officer sees' your print when he passes you. he stops you and detains you with his firearm pointed at you, and requires your pistol?

something like that?

[towerclimber37]

Things happen fast. If a Police Officer wants you disarmed he will not hold a probable cause hearing.

Don’t do something stupid that could destroy your future or even take your life.

I didn’t read the linked threads, but to answer the originally question… No, it is not legal to resist a civil rights violation. Because until a Judge or Jury rules; there is no civil rights violation. It’s just resisting arrest and you will go to jail.

Dave, I don't advocate resistance to an officer in a LEGAL questioning..but I know of at least 1 case where an officer of the law (this happened in jacksonville, fla) arrested a man (who at the time was walking to the bank from his home with a 50,000 dollar deposit (he owned several zippy mart type stores). the officer stopped, arrested, hogtied and then killed the man.

the officer now rots in a state prison, but that man is just as dead.

[Guest RN MEDIC]

My understanding of TN law ( before ill health got me, I used to be a permit instructor, but that doesn't make one a lawyer) is that an officer can take one's firearm during a time when you are detained. (examples might be when you are involved in a minor mishap/fender bender, minor moving violation, etc. ) Though the permit may have been issued to a person with a clean record initially, yet since that time, what if the permit holder is now wanted, has warrants on him/her, etc. If the officer later discovers that and the subject still has his firearm, NOW the officer has to come up with a safe plan to seperate the subject from that handgun.

I'd say most of the time, you'd be safe/ok to submit to the orders an officer gives though you may ask to speak to the supervisor. Don't volunteer any information and DON'T EVER volunteer to allow a search of your car. The officer can perform a stop and frisk (called a Terry Frisk) if he is concerned for his own safety.

While most officers are honest and capable, (several in various agencies are good friends of mine), yet some are corrupt, lazy, or incompitant. A very good book to get and read over and over is "You And The Police" by Boston T. Party. Be sure to get the latest upgraded edition. You need your own copy so get two if you intend to lend it.

On a stop, be respectful, business like, and ALERT. Ask if you are being detained or are you free to leave. Don't get chatty with the officer. Don't EVER say, "I've got a gun" or get yours out to show him. Just hand him your driver's license, auto registration, proof of insurance, AND permit. He'll know when he see's the permit that the gun is there and that it is all likely legal, because the only people who get permits are the law abiding.

Also, remember that a traffic stop is one of the most dangerous things an officer can do. He doesn't know you, thus he doesn't know if you just got out of sunday school/church or if you just broke out of jail and stole the vehicle you are driving. To you, the officer, or anyone else, life threatening danger can and will "come out of no-where" in a blink of an eye; much like driving along then suddenly/instantly you have a fender bender or near miss almost instantly. That's what the incidents I've had with a gun and bad guy were like. So far I've been fortunate to not have to shoot one after four times of coming within a "SPEC" of having to kill one. The officer has been there, but maybe some of you folks are new to this and haven't had that happen YET.

Hope some of this rambling has been useful. Sorry to be rambling on so. Happens with old age and heart surgery.

Respectfully, RN

[bteague2]

I'll happily show my permit but I am not surrendering my loaded gun for no reason. If something happened to it while you had given it to them you would still be held accountable for it. But if they arrest me or detain me or have a valid reason then sure, but I'm getting it back.

[DaveTN]

Dave, I don't advocate resistance to an officer in a LEGAL questioning..but I know of at least 1 case where an officer of the law (this happened in jacksonville, fla) arrested a man (who at the time was walking to the bank from his home with a 50,000 dollar deposit (he owned several zippy mart type stores). the officer stopped, arrested, hogtied and then killed the man.

the officer now rots in a state prison, but that man is just as dead.

And my point is that whether or not it is legal will be determined by a Judge later; not on the street. You have absolutely no right to refuse a Police Officers order to surrender your weapon; but he has every right to order you to do so. Refusal to do so can not end well.

I don’t know what you are suggesting the man in the case you described should have done. It doesn’t sound to me like he had much of a chance.

I don’t mean to make anyone mad but are these very basic things not covered in carry classes in this state? What do you guys do in these classes…. sleep?

[Guest RN MEDIC]

An officer can and must make a scene safe for himself and all others involved. It's right there in the law. If he feels my firearm is a handrance to that safety he can take it for the safety of all till all matters involving whatever are concluded,BUT then he must be able to show cause in court why he did NOT return it to me if indeed he does not. Also, my attorney told me that should the officer not defend me while he has my handgun, or not return it to me when I'm released uncharged and then I'm injured by a bad guy, both he and his dept are open to legal remedy.

There are people out there who can turn out just as good phoney permits as the state of TN can turn out real ones. He may feel that the permit is not real, no longer valid, or that the holder is a danger to himself or others. For a variety of reasons an officer can and sometimes MUST disarm a permitted firearm holder. In reality, though, those who know tell me that it VERY SELDOM happens. As for me, I've had minor mishaps/fender benders, gave the officer my permit with my DL and other papers and not one of them ever cared that I had the gun somewhere on me or in my car. Matter of fact, the only response that any of my friends have had from officers is positive toward honest people being armed.

I'd truly hate to see anyone here or elsewhere turn what could and should be just a routine contact with an officer for a few minutes then go on safely on one's way turn into something potentially deadly and that NEEDLESSLY.

In the best interest of any civilian I'd advise some deep thought before deciding to disobey a lawful order by an officer who's only intent is to get the paperwork done and get on to lunch. I wouldn't particularly like my handgun taken either, even temporarily. Remember though that most of these officers here in the south are gun people who grew up with/around firearms and aren't against armed honest people. They are not federal BATF who hate the thought of any citizen with any gun.

Just my thoughts. Respectfully, RN

[molonlabetn]

I'm not arguing that it is always (or even frequently) prudent to resist unlawful arrest. But in terms of the question; whether it is lawful to do so under specific circumstances, I would encourage everyone to review these case-law citations: http://www.constitution.org/uslaw/defunlaw.htm

Please understand that I would never lightly advocate or willingly chose violence at any level. And I suspect, neither would this country's founders have, but when it comes a choice of preserving liberty, or exchanging it for temporary security... We all know which route is right, just as it was 200 years ago, and it does come with some risk of being called a traitor or danger to peaceful society by those who do not understand what it takes to preserve liberty. They choose the path of least resistance.

It is not, then, something which can be explained to you... You must feel it.

[towerclimber37]

hahahahah I was just playing the devils' advocate, RN.

I'm sorry..I guess I shouldn't with such a weighty matter.

Understand this, If an officer feels it prudent to require my firearm for his safety, that would NOT be a problem.

Unless I have the hairs on the back of my head standing up, I will willingly give it over...if they ARE standing up, I will require that he call his patrol supervisor for me. One can never be too careful these days. Upon removing my weapon, I would unload it and give it over to him, explaining to him as I do that I'm sure he would do the same if he were in my position.

[The Rabbi]

The only reasonable case I could see was an entrance under a no-knock warrant where the entrance was mistaken (i.e. the cops screwed up and got the address wrong). If an officer is killed while the homeowner resists essentially a home invasion, too bad.

BUt I wouldnt want to be sitting there trying to decide whether the arrest was valid or not after I had pulled my gun. If it can wait for a judge to decide, then it can wait.