30th Anniversary of FBI Miami Shootout

[Cruel Hand Luke]

 

 

What needed to be known about gunfight and shootin back was well known far before this incident happened... There were plenty of old gun fights to study dating back before the turn of the twentieth century that outlined and quantified the human and equipment factors that make for a "successful" (..read that survivable and the "bad guys finished"...) fire fight engagement...

 

 

 

 

 

And yet this tragedy still happened.....

[Chucktshoes]

Well, when you set your gun on the seat before ramming someone and the guys with the submachine guns are around the corner running a train on a waitress instead of doing their jobs along with piss poor engagement tactics, it's bound to happen. Call them heroes if you want, but the only good things the agents involved in this incident did was serve as examples of what not to do. Edited April 14, 2016 by Chucktshoes

[Jamie Jackson]

Maybe you guys are seeing/reading something I'm not.

 

I reread this thread and maybe I missed the "hero" statement...I don't know...

 

I did make a statement that I had respect for the men that lost, or nearly lost, their lives. Not because they are cops or Feds, but because they choose to do their job and most of them continued to fight courageously, i.e. Mireles.

 

Did they screw up? Was some of this a total CF? Yep...Big Time. Major.

 

I respect anyone that does their job and doesn't infringe on my God Given Constitutionally Protected Rights. But we aren't discussing that here, with all due respect.

 

I appreciate the lessons we can learn and implement from their screwups.

 

I hold in high esteem men like Jeff Cooper...I've sat at his table and feel fortunate to have been able to spend that time with him. I've trained with Tom Givens, Craig Douglas, Hershel Davis and others that have that "real world" experience and many others that have trained with such people and are able to distill and share knowledge from those instructors and share that information with the willing.

 

I have never been in a gunfight and pray I never am. I have had my bacon saved on a couple of occasions because of training I've received, the Good Lord's Grace and blind luck.

eta: The training I attribute this to was from individuals that had not "shot" other individuals as in not been in a gunfight...but that had incredibly valuable ( to me) information they taught. I am grateful for that.

 

I intend no disrespect to anyone posting here, but I don't understand the direction of some of the posts. Just my opinion and observation.

Edited April 14, 2016 by prag

[leroy]

Prag...

RE:  This... 

 

 

...I intend no disrespect to anyone posting here, but I don't understand the direction of some of the posts. Just my opinion and observation. ...

 

The direction of my post is simple... The principles of gunfighting were known far before Miami...

 

America is the cradle of unbridled capitalism; and for the first time i can remember; people actually made money off this sad event... It spawned a frenzy of studies, training outlines, ammo development, and weapons development like we had not seen before... In short; it was a capitalist bonanza...Lots of people within the "training intelligentsia" and the "gun specifying" departments made lots of money off this sad event...

 

Many believe that anyone can be taught to apprehend, subdue, and even dispatch bad guys... This concept permeates the LE enterprize at all levels... I simply don't believe it; especially when the guys you are dealing with are the "real deal"... You can pass out guns, badges, and do training... You cannot measure the mettle, will, and determination of men or women and find out whether, in fact; they are the "real deal" too...

 

You and i simply disagree with the idea that the "never having fought in a gunfight" class training is valuable...

 

Opinions are multifaceted... Yours differs from mine... Now, hopefully, you understand...

 

leroy

[leroy]

So.....studying THIS event is not of any merit?...but studying fights pre 1900 is where it is at? Your post is somewhat confusing.....while I too find studying ALL gunfights I can get reliable info on no matter what the era useful, there is not any more value to studying something pre 1900 than something that happened in 1986. So I'm not sure exactly the point you are trying to make.

For that matter a horse probably will get you where you want to go...but an automobile is far more efficient. And prior to 1940 there was no more reliable method of testing for diabetes than tasting the patient's urine....but no sane doctor is still gargling piss in 2016.

But maybe you're right...maybe we should dismiss those folks who have spent a majority of their life actually educating themselves in all manner of armed and unarmed conflict, scientific method research, modern understanding of anatomy with regards to terminal ballistics, and running the gun at the ragged edge of human ability.... and instead simply read a book about the old west.........

Didn't say that...You did... Your reading skills seem to be a bit weak... Re-read the post... Then we can discuss it...

leroy

I'm a bit late to the party on this... More than that; i'm a bit dismissive...
The fact is that more manure has been spread and more dollars passed out using this sad incident as the fodder over the last 30 years than any other such shoot out i can remember...

What needed to be known about gunfight and shootin back was well known far before this incident happened... There were plenty of old gun fights to study dating back before the turn of the twentieth century that outlined and quantified the human and equipment factors that make for a "successful" (..read that survivable and the "bad guys finished"...) fire fight engagement...

I am continually incredulous about this sort of thing; and the baloney and platitudinous pontifications that arise from these sad incidents by the "gunfight teaching class" who have never been in a gunfight... Lots of the "gun intelligencia" seems to think that everything began with them... Sorry, it didn't.... It began about the Civil War, and has continued to the present...

Today's present day gunmen are no more smart nor tough than yesterdays...They may be better armed...

If ya want ta know about gunfighting, as the great Jeff Cooper quipped; ya have ta talk to and study those who have been successful in the business... I think he is exactly right...

Sadly, lots of 'em are dead now from old age... Thankfully, they didn't listen to the "gun intellegencia", the dammed gubmt bureaucrats (...non shootin FBI types, that is...), nor the political class who made money from giving lesser tools to those who need them most in order to make a buck for them and their buddies...

Now that i've spent my fit for the day, i think i'll take a nap...

Shootin leroy,
the non-believin gun baloney geezer....

Sent from my Venue 8 7840 using Tapatalk

[Jamie Jackson]

Opinions are indeed multifaceted Leroy, and while ours certainly differ, I respect yours and appreciate your clarification as to your points.

 

We can, in fact, agree to disagree.

 

I don't teach "gunfighting", but I am a lifelong student and find that even at my age I can always learn. It is our responsibility as a student to spend our funds wisely and vet our instructors. I know I do.

 

I also agree that "You cannot measure the mettle, will, and determination of men or women and find out whether, in fact; they are the "real deal" too...", but I don't think any of us can say assuredly that these attributes are within us until that moment. And I hope that moment never comes for me, but I'll continue to prepare nonetheless, and remain grateful that there are good folks willing to teach us.

 

Have a good day Leroy...I gotta get to work.

[rn29306]

Thanks for the slides on this subject on page 1. It was a good read.

[Roche]

Many in the South are of Scots-Irish descent and back when their ancestors came over they moved inland to the Appalachians and if someone stole their cattle they wouldn't travel back to the magistrate and wait for them to do something, they'd gather their brothers and cousins and go get their cattle back......whereas the northeast was largely inhabited by folks who were more in line with "following rules" and lived in more urban areas or areas that the........

Great story but I have to call Bravo Sierra on the Scots-Irish descent part.    Plenty of folks from the old country moved to Boston, New York City, Philadelphia and all points in between (my parents being off the boat themselves).  It is the NE liberalism that turns many a fine lad into a eunuch.  

Edited April 27, 2016 by Roche

[Sidecarist]

Great story but I have to call Bravo Sierra on the Scots-Irish descent part.    Plenty of folks from the old country moved to Boston, New York City, Philadelphia and all points in between (my parents being off the boat themselves).  It is the NE liberalism that turns many a fine lad into a eunuch.

Not total bravo sierra, but over simplified. I took a class from Randy and he related this story in a bit more detail. I also travel extensively for work and there is a clear difference in tolerance of bad behavior. Maybe not all about family lineage, but very much about self sufficiency. As a transplant from the north east it is true that many people are really sheep living in a city being dependent on others for every necessity of life will do that.

More self sufficient people are just more willing and equipped to take care of business, any type of business. This makes them less likely to accept victim status and the protection of others.

As redneck as it is get-r-done applies to many southern folks.

I'm glad to be here too!

[Taylor]

 

 

Many of us are also descended from folks who chose to fight for the Confederacy against what they saw as an invading army in the 1860s and the blood of those people still flows in our veins.

 

"they saw as"   That is because they were an invading army.   That reminds me...I need to order more food  , ammo and sign up for a couple more classes.  :cheers: