30th Anniversary of FBI Miami Shootout

[Cruel Hand Luke]

http://miami.cbslocal.com/2016/04/11/fbi-marks-30th-anniversary-bloody-miami-shootout/

 

MIRAMAR (CBSMiami/AP) – Thirty years ago, FBI agents Ben Grogan and Jerry Dove died in a vicious gun battle with two heavily armed suspected bank robbers in Miami-Dade’s Suniland area, which is now part of Pinecrest. It’s described as the bloodiest shootout in FBI history.

On a street corner in Pinecrest Monday , a wreath was laid to remember the heroes of the FBI who died in the Miami Shootout on April 11, 1986.

Five agents were also wounded during the gun battle.

“Ben Grogan and Jerry Dove sacrificed their lives to save mine,” said retired agents Edmundo Mireles. “It’s a wonderful gift getting an entire 30 years of life.”

Mireles was seriously injured during the shootout, as was fellow agent John Hanlon.

Grogan was 53 when he died. He was a two-decade veteran nicknamed ‘The Doctor’ and was one year shy of retirement. Dove was 30 and had joined the agency four years earlier.

The so-called “Miami Shootout” involved two serial bank robbers at SW 82nd Avenue and 122nd Street. The suspects, William Matix and Michael Platt were also killed by one of the wounded FBI agents. More than 140 shots were fired.

It all started when agents Dove and Grogan spotted the suspects’ vehicle. A high speed chase ensued when the agents tried to stop the vehicle. When agents in three FBI vehicles finally managed to stop the suspects’ car, Matix and Platt came out firing.

The incident is infamous in FBI history and is well-studied in law enforcement circles. Despite outnumbering the suspects 4 to 1, the agents found themselves pinned down by heavy rifle fire and unable to respond effectively due to their much smaller service handguns. The suspects had a Ruger assault rifle, a shotgun and .357 caliber handguns. Although both Matix and Platt were hit multiple times during the firefight, Platt fought on and continued to injure and kill agents. This incident led to the introduction of more powerful handguns in many police departments around the country including more powerful semiautomatic weapons for all FBI agents.

“Although it was 30 years ago, it is something that will remain for us because it changed us,” said FBI Director James Comey. “It changed our equipment. It changed our training. It changed how we do our work.”

The 1988 movie “In the Line of Duty” re-created the blizzard of bullets in the “Miami Shootout.”

Some of the weapons used in the shootout are now on display at the FBI building in Miramar as part of a memorial that brought the FBI’s top man from Washington.

In 2001, the Village of Pinecrest honored the two agents by co-designating a portion of Southwest 82nd Avenue as Agent Benjamin Grogan Avenue and Agent Jerry Dove Avenue. Street signs and a historical marker commemorate the naming of the roadway in honor of the two agents.

(TM and © Copyright 2016 CBS Radio Inc. and its relevant subsidiaries. CBS RADIO and EYE Logo TM and Copyright 2016 CBS Broadcasting Inc. Used under license. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. The Associated Press contributed to this report.)

Edited April 12, 2016 by Cruel Hand Luke

[Cruel Hand Luke]

So for those of us who study this type thing what do we/have we learned from this in the last 30 years?

[Omega]

So for those of us who study this type thing what do we/have we learned from this in the last 30 years?

That the .40 would of stopped the entire thing with one round :stare: , oh wait the 9mm now would of, no wait...yea more range time.

[Sidecarist]

I'll admit I'm not completely familiar with the shootout in Miami.

As I recall:

There were problems with the ammunition the FBI was using not being effective as Platt kept fighting. The FBI embarked on the 10mm project, then switched to 40. 9mm performance has largely closed the gap and is now considered effective.

They were up against rifles with handguns. This is not ideal to say the least. Tactics, training and equipment were changed so that agents would be better prepared mentally and equipment wise.

I believe that I have read that there were significant changes made to vehicle stop procedures and other rules to reduce the possibility of this type of engagement.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

[peejman]

So for those of us who study this type thing what do we/have we learned from this in the last 30 years?

 

.38 revolvers are no match for high powered, magazine fed rifles.  Fire fights happen really fast, and it takes a while for a person to bleed out. 

[mikegideon]

.38 revolvers are no match for high powered, magazine fed rifles.  Fire fights happen really fast, and it takes a while for a person to bleed out. 

 

A handgun is no match for rifles. That Mini 14 might has well have been an AR-15. 10mm wasn't the answer.

 

3 of the FBI guys had Model 459 S&W's, which may as well have been Glock 19's. About the same size and capacity. 

Edited April 12, 2016 by mikegideon

[bersaguy]

Weren't the bad guys in some type of body armor or bullet proof vests also?

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Be careful about hunting things (or people) you don't really expect to find and not being truly prepared to find if you do find them..........

 

Some people are just tough hard to kill dudes and you may have to internally disassemble them to convince them to stop fighting.....Platte was shot 12 times.  FBI Agent Mireles nearly had his arm severed by a .223 round but continued to fight. 

 

Not all former Rangers (Platt)  or Marines (Matix) are necessarily law abiding citizens....there are some well trained bad guys out there.....

 

Pistols suck at stopping people.

 

Pistols REALLY suck in a rifle fight. 

 

The gun in your holster is more secure than under your leg if you end up in a car crash.....

 

If you are injured KEEP FIGHTING you may still win....(Mireles ended the fight after having his arm all but destroyed with a .223 round.)

 

Ambidexterity and/or 1 handed skill comes in handy sometimes....in this fight McNeill, Hanlon, Platt, Matix , and Mireles were all hit in the arm or hand. 

 

Tactics and aggression make a difference. Platt's use of "Fire and maneuver" flipped the battlefield and came close to getting him and Matix out of there..........if it hadn't been for Mireles. 

 

People that get shot in the face tend to be less combat effective than they were before they got shot in the face. McNeill shot Matix in the face early on and Matix was unable to return fire after that. 

 

 

 

What are some things we got directly from this incident? 

 

The government spent A LOT of money on ballistics research. All the ammo designs that we have today that expand AND still penetrate deep enough to hit vital organs from less than ideal angles are a result of the Ballistic Workshops in 87 and in the 90s.

 

The 40SW cartridge . Love it or hate it, the .40 is a direct result of the FBI blaming the bullet instead of the training/ tactics. 

 

Patrol carbines beginning to be pondered and discussed by forward thinking trainers. The North Hollywood Bank Robbery in Feb 97 pretty much sealed the deal on this.

 

The push away from revolvers and toward everyone carrying  semi auto pistols in the FBI and the trickle down effect to agencies nationwide. 

Edited April 12, 2016 by Cruel Hand Luke

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Weren't the bad guys in some type of body armor or bullet proof vests also?

 Not in this one. I think you might be thinking about the North Hollywood bank robbery. 

[KKing]

Pistols are only to get you to your rifle.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DaveTN]

From this I learned to keep a rifle handy.
From the North Hollywood shootout I learned to make sure it’s a heavy caliber rifle.

[Sidecarist]

Randy,

Thanks, there is so much we can learn from these events. Your insight is appreciated.

So,

Keep your pistol holstered until you need it.

Pistols suck at stopping a fight, but particularly a rifle fight.

Use the best ammo you can get, it's worth it.

Never give up

Shoot them in the face if you have the chance, it works. (Practice your marksmanship to make this possible)

Learn to shoot with one hand, use cover, and anything else you can to give you a fighting chance (pun intended).

If at all possible bring a rifle.

Or shoot them in the face with a rifle as soon as possible for the best result.

[GhostDog]

As a side note: The only fatalities in North Hollywood were the two criminals. Even when starting behind the power curve, tactics (w/ a little luck) trump hardware. You have to use what you have. Use it w/ conviction and fight smart.

[Ugly]

I didn't know about this and only heard about the north Hollywood shoot out, lessons learned for sure and I want to thank those that are willing to fight scumbags like this! Thank You!

The .40 has a little more weight around here now inmo.

[peejman]

The North Hollywood thing was in 1997?  19 years ago?    :dropjaw:    I would've guessed 10 at the most.  Crap I'm old. 

[monkeylizard]

<<nevermind>>

Edited April 13, 2016 by monkeylizard

[jlw]

The Marshals had long guns and got shot up by Gordon Kahl.  

 

Look at the NFL.  Every team has great athletes, but some teams just don't get it together.  Tactics and determination and to a large extent culture can be the winning edge. 

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Gordon Kahl and Posse Comitatus are names you don't hear much anymore.... for those wondering "who?".....

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Kahl

[Cruel Hand Luke]

 

Tactics and determination and to a large extent culture can be the winning edge. 

That can be a thread all to itself......CULTURE makes a difference.

 

We see that in the FBI report of offenders who kill cops. The offender has grown up in a constant state of struggle and is often in a state of combat with victims and other predators. He has been arrested by the time he is 12 and carried a weapon since he was 14 . On the other hand the officers that many departments want to hire may have never even been in a fist fight because that would have gotten them in trouble in school. When those two cultures clash guess who has the advantage.... 

 

Also a quick anecdotal culture story.....at NTI (National Tactical Invitional) in 2007 I was talking to one of the judges as we waited for the next FOF venue to be ready.....he told me he has been a participant and or judge at all 17 NTI events and he could normally tell where someone was from by how they reacted in the scenarios. He said that people from the Northeast were VERY hesitant to pull a gun . He would just about have to zap 'em with a cattle prod to get them to shoot someone. People from the Southwest would normally give you 1 warning and then shoot. People from the South...they'd shoot you without even talking to you.  I told him that was largely cultural. Many in the South are of Scots-Irish descent and back when their ancestors came over they moved inland to the Appalachians and if someone stole their cattle they wouldn't travel back to the magistrate and wait for them to do something, they'd gather their brothers and cousins and go get their cattle back......whereas the northeast was largely inhabited by folks who were more in line with "following rules" and lived in more urban areas or areas that the "crown" could easier control as opposed to the southern frontier. Many of us are also descended from folks who chose to fight for the Confederacy against what they saw as an invading army in the 1860s and the blood of those people still flows in our veins. When it is time to talk it is time to talk... but when it is time to fight...it is not time to talk. There is time to talk and time to fight but there is not a whole lot of overlap between the two.  He said he'd never really thought of it that way but it made sense.....

[Jamie Jackson]

Excellent topic Randy!

 

I first read of this incident back in '88-'89 in, iirc, an issue of Handguns Magazine. (I still have the issue in the basement somewhere).

 

I have a copy of "In the Line of Duty" on DVD. It was remarkably accurate in it's portrayal from what I've read on the subject.

 

 

 

 

 

So for those of us who study this type thing what do we/have we learned from this in the last 30 years?

 

Quite a bit, but sometimes it seems not enough. Fighting institutional dogma, both within Law Enforcement Training and the general training community has been, and on some level, still is, an uphill battle.

 

This fight was up close, fast, against 2 well armed, practiced and determined individuals and a complete paradigm shift from what was currently taught at that time.

 

The FBI and the Gun Media deflected the mistakes that were clearly a "training issue" to "a failure of the ammo issue...The 9mm Winchester Silvertip in particular.

Ammo isn't the answer in most cases, but having the will to fight, adequate tools (and realistic expectations of their capabilities), and quality realistic training can make a difference. Will make a difference imho.

 

John Hearne, one of the finest critical thinkers and researchers within our community has an excellent powerpoint presentation on the fight that is probably available on the interwebs somewhere.

 

I have incredible respect for several of the agents involved, Ed Mireles in particular...Man! You talk about determination and force of will! I don't even think the one hand operation of a 12g pump was being taught at the time, but Mireles put it to use!

 

Also, again iirc, as this was the very early days of the autoloader and revolvers were still the norm, agents were trained to transition to a second gun (generally a 5 shot J frame) when their primary went empty...a handgun markedly more difficult to shoot rapidly and accurately by comparison...

 

 

(You guys have already covered other aspects and improvements quite well and much better I could articulate)

 

 

Some people are just tough hard to kill dudes and you may have to internally disassemble them to convince them to stop fighting.....Platte was shot 12 times.  FBI Agent Mireles nearly had his arm severed by a .223 round but continued to fight. 

 

Not all former Rangers (Platt)  or Marines (Matix) are necessarily law abiding citizens....there are some well trained bad guys out there.....

 

Tactics and aggression make a difference. Platt's use of "Fire and maneuver" flipped the battlefield and came close to getting him and Matix out of there..........if it hadn't been for Mireles. 

 

 

 

 

My edited version of Randy's post brings to mind our recent discussion of preparing for a worst case scenario...having to fight a "Todd"...maybe a couple of them, as in this incident. Talk about your day going from bad to worse...

 

Platt and Matix apparently made a habit of frequent practice, we are talking ammo by the case load. They were knowledgeable of, and utilized some pretty sound tactics, and their level of aggression was obvious.

 

I am a civilian and it's not my job to chase down bad actors like this...but you never know what will come down the pike. I pray I never find myself in this type of situation, but I am thankful for the positive advances in the art of fighting that is a direct result of the lessons learned from the sacrifice of these gentlemen.

[Jamie Jackson]

Randy also wrote "Pistols suck at stopping people." Yes they do suck! They suck bad at this job.

 

I've seen people shot multiple times and not really seriously care about the fact. I had a guy that had 9 rounds in him help me get a guy out of the car he was driving that had been shot 7 times and get him into our ER. 9 round dude had been shot before and knew his wounds weren't life, nor apparently fight, ending as he slipped out later to go "finish" his "business"....yes, there were officers all over the place...it happens...but a large portion of the survivable handgun "stops" are psychological....they just don't want to be shot anymore...

 

Face shots are a good thing. They take a lot of the fight out of most folks, maybe even get one in the brainbox...even better.

 

Rapid surgical placement is something I still struggle with...but at least I know it's required.

Edited April 13, 2016 by prag

[Jonsaiga]

part 1 & 2 of the FBI's training film regarding this incident.

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlSCE88UhyA

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAUDnzDhQpc

[Jamie Jackson]

Here are a couple of pics of slide's from John Hearne's excellent powerpoint presented at IALEFI

"The FBI's Miami Firefight: Lessons that still resonate"

 

There are some interesting photos that reveal the incredibly close proximity of the firefight...the stories from it make it sound as though there was much greater distance involved.

 

Of particular interest in motivating my training regime are these 2 slides:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

These 2 guys were well trained, well practiced, highly motivated psychopaths/sociopaths...they are not the only ones out there my friends.

 

The "explanation" regarding the 2 slides linked are within the pdf. It's well worth reading imho.

 

 

LINK to PDF

 

http://www.ialefi.com/conf2012/Instructor%20Proposals/Hearne,%20John/FBI-Miami%20Handouts.pdf

[leroy]

I'm a bit late to the party on this... More than that; i'm a bit dismissive...

The fact is that more manure has been spread and more dollars passed out using this sad incident as the fodder over the last 30 years than any other such shoot out i can remember...

 

What needed to be known about gunfight and shootin back was well known far before this incident happened... There were plenty of old gun fights to study dating back before the turn of the twentieth century that outlined and quantified the human and equipment factors that make for a "successful" (..read that survivable and the "bad guys finished"...) fire fight engagement...

 

I am continually incredulous about this sort of thing; and the baloney and platitudinous pontifications that arise from these sad incidents by the "gunfight teaching class" who have never been in a gunfight... Lots of the "gun intelligencia" seems to think that everything began with them... Sorry, it didn't.... It began about the Civil War, and has continued to the present...

 

Today's present day gunmen are no more smart nor tough than yesterdays...They may be better armed...

 

If ya want ta know about gunfighting, as the great Jeff Cooper quipped;  ya have ta talk to and study those who have been successful in the business... I think he is exactly right...

 

Sadly, lots of 'em are dead now from old age... Thankfully, they didn't listen to the "gun intellegencia", the dammed gubmt bureaucrats (...non shootin FBI types, that is...), nor the political class who made money from giving lesser tools to those who need them most in order to make a buck for them and their buddies...

 

Now that i've spent my fit for the day, i think i'll take a nap...

 

Shootin leroy,

the non-believin gun baloney geezer....

[Cruel Hand Luke]

So.....studying THIS event is not of any merit?...but studying fights pre 1900 is where it is at? Your post is somewhat confusing.....while I too find studying ALL gunfights I can get reliable info on no matter what the era useful,  there is not any more value to studying something pre 1900 than something that happened in 1986. So I'm not sure exactly the point you are trying to make.

 

For that matter a horse probably will get you where you want to go...but  an automobile is far more efficient. And prior to 1940 there was no more reliable method of testing for diabetes than tasting the patient's urine....but no sane doctor is still gargling piss in 2016. 

 

But maybe you're right...maybe we should dismiss those folks who have spent a majority of their life actually educating themselves in all manner of armed and unarmed conflict, scientific method research, modern understanding of anatomy with regards to terminal ballistics, and running the gun at the ragged edge of human ability.... and instead simply read a book about the old west.........

Edited April 14, 2016 by Cruel Hand Luke