Constitutional Carry Or Non Restricted Permit Carry

[300winmag]

If you had to choose between Constitutional carry with the present restrictions that we have VS unrestricted permit carry (basically legal in any location you carry whether it is a store or school), which would you choose?

 

I personally would choose to pay for the handgun carry permit and carry anywhere legally without restrictions VS the constitutional carry with the various gun free area restrictions.

[Chucktshoes]

Constitutional carry is a more pressing issue than fully unrestricted carry. It represents the greater infringement upon a natural right of the two options.

[DaveTN]

I would pick Constitutional carry. We as a “special group” can have all the carry permits we want but we will never be able to drive it down the throats of business owners. The state can try, but the courts won’t uphold it.

You have more of a chance of carrying in government owned buildings if it’s a recognized right.

[300winmag]

I am just talking legally carry anywhere and not going into the state over riding policies of businesses.  Off duty LEO's can carry anywhere legally in the state but can be asked by property owners to leave by business policy.  Some states treat pistol licensees the same way as off duty LEO's as far as not having any legal restrictions.

 

For example, I may have a business policy against people drinking liquor in their offices on company property.  However it is not illegal by state law for people to drink in their offices.  All I can do is ask an employee or other person to leave and the person has every right to carry his liquor out the door with him.  I can't have the police come and arrest the person for drinking on my property and confiscate the person's alcohol for breaking a company policy.

 

Why would you not want to be able to carry anywhere legally and the state not have the ability to enforce company and state government policies as criminal weapons violations?

Edited March 18, 2016 by 300winmag

[Chucktshoes]

I am just talking legally carry anywhere and not going into the state over riding policies of businesses. Off duty LEO's can carry anywhere legally in the state but can be asked by property owners to leave by business policy. Some states treat pistol licensees the same way as off duty LEO's as far as not having any legal restrictions..

Speaking for myself, I understood your position, but as Dave said we are already a "special group" who pay for a privilege and I don't think the correct path is trying to make us more special. The state should recognize and respect the rights of all the people instead of forcing folks to pay exorbitant fees to exercise their rights.

[Erik88]

Tough call. There are very few places that I visit that I'm not allowed to carry at. I do wish the no gun signs didn't have the weight of law.

 

Personally, I'd rather have TN laws than VT laws. Yes constitutional carry is nice but they don't even offer permits there which means carrying while traveling outside the state is a challenge.

[DaveTN]

I am just talking legally carry anywhere and not going into the state over riding policies of businesses.  Off duty LEO's can carry anywhere legally in the state but can be asked by property owners to leave by business policy.  Some states treat pistol licensees the same way as off duty LEO's as far as not having any legal restrictions.
 
For example, I may have a business policy against people drinking liquor in their offices on company property.  However it is not illegal by state law for people to drink in their offices.  All I can do is ask an employee or other person to leave and the person has every right to carry his liquor out the door with him.  I can't have the police come and arrest the person for drinking on my property and confiscate the person's alcohol for breaking a company policy.
 
Why would you not want to be able to carry anywhere legally and the state not have the ability to enforce company and state government policies as criminal weapons violations?

Well my feelings on it are this… I don’t think anyone here likes a thug government. You also don’t have a right unless it is acknowledged by the state and all citizens of the state have that right.

If all citizens don’t have a right to carry, I respect the right of the business to post. They shouldn’t have to approach people carrying guns to determine who is committing a crime and who is not. Many people simply hate guns and don’t want them in their business: I respect that.

Many business owners post because they know that if someone gets shot in their business; they are the deep pockets and the attorneys will be going after them for a payday. I believe that if the state wants to tell a business people can carry in there; then the business should have absolute immunity from liability; they can’t even be named in a civil suit and don’t have any legal costs. An attorney would need to answer, but I’m not sure that immunity could even be legal.

It is a crime in this state to carry a loaded gun in public. Most state and Federal office buildings do not allow firearms. Yet the state thinks they are going to beat business owners into submission? I can’t get onboard with that in any way shape or form.

Now if the state wants to recognize the 2nd amendment as an individual’s right to both keep and bear arms; that’s a different story.

But let’s say that happens… where do you draw the line? Does your boss have to allow you to carry at work? It’s never going to happen. We are at a time when states are trying everything they can to get businesses to move into the state. Telling them you have to allow people to carry guns on their property would be a significant factor for any large business.

A law with no teeth is useless. Right now you risk a “fine only” of $500 and possible impact to your permit if you walk past a sign. On this forum I have yet to see a single person cited for carrying past a sign. One person posted that a friend of theirs got arrested for it, but he also said the guy went to court and got probation. That tells me he was likely arrested for carrying without a permit. It’s just my opinion that too much time and energy is spent on something that just doesn’t happen. Channel that towards something more important; like Constitutional carry.

We have a lot of gun privileges in this state. Sure, we have to buy them, but we have them. I don’t want to see business pitted against carry; I doubt that would end well for us.

[JayC]

Gold Standard Constitutional Carry if possible, if not Open Carry like all the states (except GA) that touch this state have.  We need to provide for a way for citizens to carry without having to go through the expense of getting permission from the government...   

[JAB]

Don't some states have systems where 'basic' carry without a permit is legal and a carry permit can be obtained for 'enhanced' carry so that a permit holder can pretty well carry anywhere an on-duty police officer could legally carry, including schools, etc.?  I know the OP said 'choose' but I am thinking that the answer might not be an either/or thing.

[300winmag]

I do know you can open carry and car carry in Mississippi without a permit.  You then can get a permit without training and you have a decent list of places you can't legally carry concealed.  Then you can take basically the same class we take and get an enhanced license and carry anywhere but a courtroom during court and a police station.  You can carry at K-12 schools and universities with an enhanced license in Mississippi.  The schools and any property with or without a legal no gun sign can ask you to leave in Mississippi but you don't have to worry about any sort of weapons charge if you take the class and get an enhanced license.

 

Personally, I think treating our handgun carry permit like an enhanced license is treated in Mississippi would help it continue to be purchased by people even if we had constitutional carry.  From what I understand, the enhanced license in MS is pretty popular.  I don't think you'll ever get school and university carry in TN legalized without a permit.  It is possible with a permit.

Edited March 21, 2016 by 300winmag

[JayC]

I understand why we'd want to keep the permit system around, because other states don't support constitutional carry...  but why on earth would we encourage more needless rules...  why can;t any law abiding adult carry a firearm in the state of TN where ever they go?

 

I do know you can open carry and car carry in Mississippi without a permit.  You then can get a permit without training and you have a decent list of places you can't legally carry concealed.  Then you can take basically the same class we take and get an enhanced license and carry anywhere but a courtroom during court and a police station.  You can carry at K-12 schools and universities with an enhanced license in Mississippi.  The schools and any property with or without a legal no gun sign can ask you to leave in Mississippi but you don't have to worry about any sort of weapons charge if you take the class and get an enhanced license.

 

Personally, I think treating our handgun carry permit like an enhanced license is treated in Mississippi would help it continue to be purchased by people even if we had constitutional carry.  From what I understand, the enhanced license in MS is pretty popular.  I don't think you'll ever get school and university carry in TN legalized without a permit.  It is possible with a permit.

[JAB]

I do know you can open carry and car carry in Mississippi without a permit.  You then can get a permit without training and you have a decent list of places you can't legally carry concealed.  Then you can take basically the same class we take and get an enhanced license and carry anywhere but a courtroom during court and a police station.  You can carry at K-12 schools and universities with an enhanced license in Mississippi.  The schools and any property with or without a legal no gun sign can ask you to leave in Mississippi but you don't have to worry about any sort of weapons charge if you take the class and get an enhanced license.

 

Personally, I think treating our handgun carry permit like an enhanced license is treated in Mississippi would help it continue to be purchased by people even if we had constitutional carry.  From what I understand, the enhanced license in MS is pretty popular.  I don't think you'll ever get school and university carry in TN legalized without a permit.  It is possible with a permit.

 

Yeah, that is the sort of thing I was thinking of.

 

I understand why we'd want to keep the permit system around, because other states don't support constitutional carry...  but why on earth would we encourage more needless rules...  why can;t any law abiding adult carry a firearm in the state of TN where ever they go?

 

Because this is the real world.  I don't intend that to sound condescending - please don't take it that way - I'm just saying that no matter how much we might wish we lived in a society where self defense would get the overwhelming support needed in order to bring such a system into being the fact is that it is very unlikely.  Reality is that those of us who like to be prepared to defend ourselves and our loved ones by carrying a firearm are the minority.  We might see legal carry without a permit within our lifetimes but I don't think we'll see carry in schools, etc. without a permit - especially if carry without a permit comes to be and suddenly nearly everyone who can legally own a gun can carry one without the type of background checks that a permit currently requires.  So, rather than having no avenue for carry in such places at least an enhanced permit would give those who want to be able to carry in such locations an option for being able to legally do so.  Many of us would still want to have such a permit in order to be able to carry in other states, anyhow, so - as carrying in schools, etc. without a permit isn't likely to ever happen - adding the ability to carry in such locations with a permit would just mean added value for the permit.

Edited March 22, 2016 by JAB

[300winmag]

Yeah i think in an ideal world we would be able to legally carry in any location without any sort of permit.  Reality is, in the states where it is legal to carry in places like schools and universities, you generally need a license to carry in those locations.  I would rather pay 50 bucks every 4 years to carry legally in a school than not pay the 50 bucks and not be legal in that location.  

 

I think you have a much sounder argument to legalize school carry when you say that in half the states people can carry with a license at a college and several you can carry again with a license in K-12 schools.   I don't think you'd have a sound argument, with examples from other states, to legalize those locations without a permit.

Edited March 22, 2016 by 300winmag

[JayC]

Giving away rights to increase the value of a unconstitutional government permission slip is the reason we're not father along in repealing these bad laws today...  I'm all for incremental progress, and using the permit system as a backdoor to allowing more people to go armed more places is just fine... 

 

But, we as 2nd Amendment supports shouldn't be giving ammo to the opposition...  Our current permit system is worthless, the ONLY thing it accomplishes is prevent otherwise law abiding adults from being able to protect themselves.  We've come a long way in the last couple of years, you can now carry a loaded firearm in your vehicle... 

 

We should be pushing to turn the permit into nothing more than a license for those who want to carry in less free states...  anything more than that results in more parasites (government workers) living off of the rest of us.

 

Because this is the real world.  I don't intend that to sound condescending - please don't take it that way - I'm just saying that no matter how much we might wish we lived in a society where self defense would get the overwhelming support needed in order to bring such a system into being the fact is that it is very unlikely.  Reality is that those of us who like to be prepared to defend ourselves and our loved ones by carrying a firearm are the minority.  We might see legal carry without a permit within our lifetimes but I don't think we'll see carry in schools, etc. without a permit - especially if carry without a permit comes to be and suddenly nearly everyone who can legally own a gun can carry one without the type of background checks that a permit currently requires.  So, rather than having no avenue for carry in such places at least an enhanced permit would give those who want to be able to carry in such locations an option for being able to legally do so.  Many of us would still want to have such a permit in order to be able to carry in other states, anyhow, so - as carrying in schools, etc. without a permit isn't likely to ever happen - adding the ability to carry in such locations with a permit would just mean added value for the permit.

Edited March 23, 2016 by JayC

[stillstanding669]

OK, I just can't see letting the "parasites (government workers)" go.  I have known many of the folks that the Department Of Safety / Homeland Security that do "work" in the Handgun Permit Section, and those are some of the lowest paid government workers you will ever meet.

 

Otherwise, I'm all in for Constitutional Carry!  Why on earth do we have to pay for a right provided by our State's and the Federal Government's Constitutions?  Do you have to go through formal training to speak freely, choose or participate in a religion or religious activity?  The 1st and 2nd Amendments are necessary for freedom, pursuit of happiness, and our overall citizen's protection from a tyrannical government.  Do we really want King Obama, or Queen Hillary to control our very existence?  Anyone for a bottle of vodka and a small loaf of wheat bread for our daily portion?

 

We need to have a voter's cleansing in our State government, and a total reset in our Federal government.  Vote for the one's you know will stay true to principals you hold to be true and just, not the one's that keep doing everything to make their own families rich!  The safest job in the State is being an incumbent that is up for re-election.  With the current clowns in office, Constitutional Carry has no chance of ever being passed.  Off the wall question:  Could we the voters ever get a chance to vote for Constitutional Carry during a normal election? 

[quietguy]

 

 

Could we the voters ever get a chance to vote for Constitutional Carry during a normal election? 

Yes.  That may be the only chance you have to get Constitutional Carry into law.  It would have to be carefully drafted, and would take years to accomplish.  

[btq96r]

I'm far more upset that even with a permit I can't carry into buildings I help pay for at least the maintenance of through tax dollars than I am at having to pay what isn't a horrible fee for that permit. 

 

I get it, to some the principle of the cost of a permit is BS in the first place, and it certainly is when you know full well that the program is being billed to the public well above the cost to administrate it.   However, I don't disagree with the permit process itself, nor the qualifications and restrictions we have in place, as I'm not opposed to a standard that establishes who is in "the militia" as we would define it today.  But having the government tell me that even though I meet the standard established, I'm still not allowed to carry into buildings owned by the public, and that LEO's or other government security are allowed to do so so they (the government) can be protected is a particular insult in my eyes.

 

So, I'm in favor of non-restrictive over Constitutional Carry.

[300winmag]

Yeah I think it is a joke that people in places like Alabama and New Hampshire basically have a background check done on the spot often times to get a license with no class/range time and can carry on school and university property legally while we jump through so many hoops here to get a permit and are somehow perceived by the politicians and media to be unqualified to carry in those places.

Edited March 23, 2016 by 300winmag

[DaveTN]

Where are these states that allow carry on school property (other than Colleges)? I took a quick look and don’t see any. Isn’t there a Federal gun free act about schools?

[Chucktshoes]

Where are these states that allow carry on school property (other than Colleges)? I took a quick look and don’t see any. Isn’t there a Federal gun free act about schools?

Alabama and Mississippi (enhanced permit) come to mind right off the top of my head. There are several others that also permit carry on K-12 premises.

[300winmag]

You can legally carry in a K-12 school in Missouri too with a license.  The school may ask you to leave if the school finds out you are carrying but you are legal as long as you have a license in Missouri.

 

Utah, Oregon, and Kansas are states out west that I can think of where it is legal to carry in a K-12 school with a license also.  You used to be able to carry in a K-12 school in California until January of this year.  Now you have to get permission from the school to carry to be legal and you know that no school will give permission.

 

Also Delaware and Rhode Island it is legal also for licensees to carry in K-12 schools.

 

Remember, if it isn't made illegal then it is legal to carry in a place.  Also a school can and probably would ask you to leave if your gun is seen in most or all of these states where carry is legal in a K-12 school.

 

In my opinion, we are short changing ourselves by not pointing to these other states in an effort to improve our handgun permit restrictions.

Edited March 23, 2016 by 300winmag

[300winmag]

The federal Gun Free School Zones Act makes an exception for people with a license carrying in a school.  The state just needs to grant the same exception to be legal carrying in a school.

 

Here is the federal exception:

 

(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

[JAB]

Giving away rights to increase the value of a unconstitutional government permission slip is the reason we're not father along in repealing these bad laws today...  I'm all for incremental progress, and using the permit system as a backdoor to allowing more people to go armed more places is just fine... 

 

But, we as 2nd Amendment supports shouldn't be giving ammo to the opposition...  Our current permit system is worthless, the ONLY thing it accomplishes is prevent otherwise law abiding adults from being able to protect themselves.  We've come a long way in the last couple of years, you can now carry a loaded firearm in your vehicle... 

 

We should be pushing to turn the permit into nothing more than a license for those who want to carry in less free states...  anything more than that results in more parasites (government workers) living off of the rest of us.

 

Actually, the fact that we are the minority and there are loud voices opposing us - while the majority of the public doesn't think too much about these issues, either way - are the reasons we're not farther along in repealing these bad laws today.  There is incremental progress, there is making great strides in progress and then there is jousting at windmills.

 

I believe that the permit system provides, to the majority of voters in TN who probably don't have strong opinions on the subject either way, an assurance that the people who are carrying loaded guns behind them in Walmart or sitting next to them at Applebee's have undergone some sort of 'vetting' process and have proven themselves to be competent enough with a firearm to carry one in public.  Do we know the 'range qualification' in TN is a joke?  Sure - but most people don't and that likely helps keep those who don't have an opinion either way from becoming part of the opposition.  As a minority group we can't afford to have the currently mostly uninformed public turned against us.  It is my belief that we have made the strides that we have made in the last, few years because some politicians want to court our vote and doing so won't hurt their chances with the majority of voters who, again, just don't care.  While I do believe it is possible to get enough of those individuals 'on our side' or at least not in opposition to, possibly, get general carry without a permit passed.  Let it be announced, however, that 'anyone' can now carry a loaded gun where these folks' children attend kindergarten - and you can bet the worst, possible spin would be put on that by the media when it is reported on the news or by the school administrators (whose statements most uninitiated parents are going to trust) - and I believe those folks would suddenly care.  They would care a whole lot - and they wouldn't be on our side.  As it would get the majority riled up and help the opposition rally them against us, carry in schools, etc. without a permit - if passed or even if it looked like it had a strong chance of passing - would likely hurt us more and set us back more than any failure to remove bad laws has to date.  Further, I believe that carry without a permit will never become reality in TN if our side doesn't recognize that we are going to have to give in on K-12 schools at the very least.  By refusing to do so we would only be shooting ourselves in the foot, figuratively speaking.

 

Do I like that this is the state of our society?  Of course not.  But it is.  As a mostly pragmatic person, I believe in picking the battles that we can win rather than knowingly achieving Pyrrhic victories.  Now, if folks want to fight for carry everywhere with no permit required as part of a strategy to get other things accomplished - for example, our side pushes for no permit carry everywhere simply as a negotiation tactic.  That way, we can 'compromise' by 'giving in' on no permit carry in K-12 schools, etc. but only on the condition that we get no permit carry in most, other places with an enhanced permit option for those who want to be able to carry everywhere, period - just like law enforcement - where not prohibited by federal law. 

Edited March 24, 2016 by JAB

[rmiddle]

Federal law prohibit school care without a license.  Constitutional Carry wont allow school carry without a federal law change.  You will have to have some kind of state issued permit to carry in schools no mater what the state law says.  Since I have a Utah permit if I every find myself in Utah with a need to go into a school I could.  However I couldn't carry based on my TN permit it is only good in the state of issue.

 

Thanks

Robert