Talking to a student about upgrading a firearm

[timcar86]

I was wondering how many of you trainers talk to a student about using/not using a firearm. 99% of the time, a firearm is fine for a beginner class on the basics of shooting but every once in a while I'll see a gun that is almost dangerous. For example, I agreed to teach a co-worker and her husband the basics of handguns as she is taking her carry class on Sunday. After talking with her for a while, I discovered that her husband purchased a Raven 25 for her to take the qualification test with. I've shot a Raven before and thought it was, in my opinion, one of the worst firearms ever created. I can't imaging him even finding ammo much less her being able to qualify with it. I'll have plenty of guns for her to try out but how can I break it to her and her husband that his choice of firearm was a poor one and they need to purchase a better one?

 

On a side note, she's never even handled this gun much less shot it. That's one of the reasons I agreed to train them. Also, before anyone makes any points about cost, I know how much she makes and her 2016 Lexus says she probably won't have any issues upgrading.

[Pete123]

Raven 25, wow.  That's a real Saturday Night Special.  What a piece of crap.

 

I would say something along the lines that the gun can be the difference between life and death.  A fancy gun isn't needed but a quality gun is a must and that someone planning on using a gun for self defense needs to plan on spending about this amount.

[Sidecarist]

A Hi Point would be Waaaaaaaaaay better than a Raven!

 

I might say something similar to what Pete123 said, and ad in some info about caliber selection based on FBI stats as well. If money isn't an issue then it sounds like the problem may be that the husband thinks his wife can't handle a 9mm or even a 380. Interestingly I went pistol shopping with a friend a while back and everyone was pushing her to a 380. She had problems cycling the slide on blowback 380's but locked breach 9mm weren't a problem particularly on compact size guns where the slide mass allows for slightly lighter recoil springs.

 

They have come to you as an expert. They should respect your opinion. Discuss the Raven's materials of construction (Zinc Alloy) vs a quality brand handgun. It may take some shopping to find something she likes but I haven't met a woman yet that doesn't like shopping. Most are intimidated by the lingo and testosterone heavy atmosphere of a gun shop. Your training should help with that.

 

Fit is important for good control and there are a lot of good pistols out there for smaller hands now days. My wife uses a S&W M&P Shield 9, and a Sig P320 compact with a small grip module with no problems. My friend went with a Shield 9 as well but came close to buying a Glock 43 and a Sig P225.

 

I'm sure that after she has a chance to shoot she may also make up her mind that the Raven is sub par at best...

 

Good Luck!

[frankmako]

Talk to both of them at the same time. If you can have a better chose to show them with you. Have something to compare against the Raven.

[MacGyver]

You're likely wasting your breath until they've had the experience of shooting the pistol and getting frustrated on their own.

 

If they get frustrated, that gives you an opening to help them learn.  But, up to that point, it involves throwing the husband under the bus.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Class experiences have a way of weeding out gear that is...."sub-optimal".  Until you really experience the "Why" a particular gun or piece of gear is less than ideal you really don't have a grasp of why you need to upgrade. Until you see it fail it is still just "other people's opinions". When it refuses to shoot more than 3 rounds without malfunctioning, or until you experience how difficult it is to press the trigger , or work the slide (these are generalities not particular to any one particular gun ) then it becomes fact that you discovered...not just something someone told you.....

 

I tell students all the time that class is also an equipment lab for them to test their kit. I tell them to bring what you actually carry on a daily basis to pistol classes , or what you actually plan to use in case of home invasion, natural disaster, Indian uprising or zombie apocalypse for rifle and shotgun classes. Until you try to run your actual gear you actually  plan to use then you have no real idea how well (or not) it will perform.  Best to find that out in class and not on the two way range. 

[Omega]

Just tell her she could do better, and a better gun would help too :angel:  :devil:

[chances R]

Usually every class has someone that needs guidance. I give generalized guidelines/ suggestions early on in the class. I hate for new shooters to have trouble during qualification. If they insist on using a difficult gun, I will get them to change out to a 22 pretty quick. Also generally no good reason to go buy a gun just for a carry class. Plenty of time later to make good, informed choice. Edited March 19, 2016 by chances R

[Pete123]

I'm going to break from the pack with another piece of input.  I haven't taught shooting classes and can't speak from experience in that instance.

 

I've spent my career talking to people about buying something from me.  I have always viewed my role as educating and enabling them to make the best decision for their company.  I've been in hundreds of situations where the prospective client made a big mistake.  

 

I always say, 'This is your decision.  I think the best choice for you is X and here is why.  Sometimes they follow what I say and sometimes they don't.  Once they listen to what I say I then respect the decision they make.

 

In this case, I think it makes sense to bring it up with both of them.  Assuming that you are working with her tomorrow, I would bring it up and offer to let her use one of your guns whether or not her husband is there.  She's investing 8 hours on Sunday.  You are looking out for her by sharing this.  If he isn't there you can always suggest she talk it over with her husband.

 

I don't view this as throwing the husband under the bus.  Most likely, he is un-educated about guns and doesn't know the Raven is a piece of crap and that a .25 isn't a good defensive round.

[Sidecarist]

I'm going to break from the pack with another piece of input.  I haven't taught shooting classes and can't speak from experience in that instance.
 
I've spent my career talking to people about buying something from me.  I have always viewed my role as educating and enabling them to make the best decision for their company.  I've been in hundreds of situations where the prospective client made a big mistake.  
 
I always say, 'This is your decision.  I think the best choice for you is X and here is why.  Sometimes they follow what I say and sometimes they don't.  Once they listen to what I say I then respect the decision they make.
 
In this case, I think it makes sense to bring it up with both of them.  Assuming that you are working with her tomorrow, I would bring it up and offer to let her use one of your guns whether or not her husband is there.  She's investing 8 hours on Sunday.  You are looking out for her by sharing this.  If he isn't there you can always suggest she talk it over with her husband.
 
I don't view this as throwing the husband under the bus.  Most likely, he is un-educated about guns and doesn't know the Raven is a piece of crap and that a .25 isn't a good defensive round.

Well said

[Hershmeister]

"Nevermore!"

[i1afli]

 
If they get frustrated, that gives you an opening to help them learn.  But, up to that point, it involves throwing the husband under the bus.

+1
To say that she needs a better gun will probably be taken as an insult by her husband, possibly causing him to defend his decision, establishing a position that he will stick to in order to save face in front of his wife. Let them decide that she needs a better gun.

[Wingshooter]

If it's anything like the RG25 that was given to me, then she'll be asking about upgrades. I shot it once and decided I value my hand too much to ever shoot it again. Maybe provide some good alternatives for her to try, and she should notice the difference. Then you could express to her that it's not uncommon for people to upgrade or have multiples

[Jonnin]

Its your job as teacher to teach, so do it.    Tell her what you think and offer to let her shoot a variety of guns to get a feel for different styles and then offer to take her shopping for something suitable.

 

25 just has few redeeming qualities.  It costs a lot for practice ammo,  the guns that shoot it put the recoil into a tiny strip and bite your hands,  and its a bit weak.  It comes in a tiny package, and that's about all you can say in its favor.

[Dane]

As someone who has been in sales a long time I can offer some advice on this.
1)Never disparage another product. As already mentioned, calling it crap will create a defensive position.
2) Educate. Pull out some of you guns and talk about the differences is revolvers, semi autos etc. Talk about what makes one a quality piece and another not so much. Use their gun as well as yours to present a best, better, good scenario in that order. Show them what they lose at each step.
3) Shoot them. Start with the raven then something much smoother and easier on the hands. This is where you insert bias by making the comparison bigger, less recoil, easier to handle. Like a pinto vs a caddy.

Let her make the decision to get a different gun by guiding.

[BigK]

No man who knows anything about guns and loves his wife would buy her a Raven 25 to defend her life with. So, I agree that he is in as much need of education as her. However, telling a man he bought shi++y gun is like telling him his kids are ugly or his grandma's cooking sucks. I'd bet on a defensive reaction if you aren't very, very tactful. 

 

Good luck, buddy.

[glowdotGlock]

I would talk to the husband alone and recommend an upgrade. This way maybe he won't be offended since his wife won't be there to hear. Just guy talk guns with him.

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[Pete123]

Having thought about comments since my last one I have further thoughts.

 

First, none of us have any idea how either she or the husband will react.  We are dealing with people after all.

 

There is some risk with the approach I suggested.

 

Also, most of the time, it's not what you say but how you say it.  Of course the husband will be pissed if you say the gun is a piece of crap.  That's basic common sense.  

 

I think this thread has given the original poster plenty to think about and consider.  Also, each of have a different view on how to handle things based on our life experience.  I appreciate straight talk delivered in a courteous manner.  

Edited March 20, 2016 by Pete123