Another they shouldn't have shot him because......

[Ugly]

The thing I want to know is exactly at what point, and where did she see the kid, and what exactly transpired (the 2nd part will be incomplete without more witnesses, probably). Since the alarm alert came to her, and the police were on the way, she probably should have waited for the police to handle things, or at least clear the home to let her know it was empty. When a 50something female decides to check things out, she all but put herself into a situation where her only option for self defense is lethal. While I agree she has the right to defend her life, I would submit that she is culpable for putting herself into a situation she may well didn't have to be in.

In the big picture, what I'm worried about is people stretching "stand your ground" into some vigilante version of "movement to contact." Basically, if you wouldn't do something without a gun, why would you think it's okay to do so with a gun? Aside from the obvious issues of untrained, non-LEO personnel putting themselves into those kinds of situations, it's a fast way for those indifferent, or on the fence about gun rights to think the liberal side of things is the more relevant argument.



"Confrontation" is a wide spectrum. Assuming it escalated to the point of life endangerment is assuming a lot.



I wasn't making a judgement, just pointing out there are inconsistencies against a clear case for self-defense that I could see. As noted above, there is are a few things I'm wondering about just where the confrontation was for starters.

Wait for the police? What if that takes 6 hours to not showing up? I've had it happen with calling three masked men with long guns, they never showed up.

Don't forget, she is the victim. Geez.

[btq96r]

Wait for the police? What if that takes 6 hours to not showing up? I've had it happen with calling three masked men with long guns, they never showed up.

Don't forget, she is the victim. Geez.

 

Again, if you wouldn't do it without a gun, why would you do it with a gun?  Carrying a gun is to protect your life, not give you courage you wouldn't otherwise have. 

 

And you can what if it all you want, the police came in this case.

Edited March 20, 2016 by btq96r

[Omega]

Again, if you wouldn't do it without a gun, why would you do it with a gun?  Carrying a gun is to protect your life, not give you courage you wouldn't otherwise have. 
 
And you can what if it all you want, the police came in this case.

So you think nobody should protect their property? The police don't even have to protect you, or your property. Because the law doesn't allow claymores I choose to protect my property while being armed with a gun. The law allows me to use force to keep what I have and defend myself with lethal force should the thief choose escalation. I don't understand everyone's defense of these thiefs, they choose to put themselves in these situations, so let them reap what they sow.

[btq96r]

So you think nobody should protect their property? The police don't even have to protect you, or your property. Because the law doesn't allow claymores I choose to protect my property while being armed with a gun. The law allows me to use force to keep what I have and defend myself with lethal force should the thief choose escalation. I don't understand everyone's defense of these thiefs, they choose to put themselves in these situations, so let them reap what they sow.

 

Just because I'm being critical in looking at the shooters actions, doesn't mean I'm defending the thief.  I also don't think this lady committed a crime.  I don't know the exact details of FL law, but in TN, I doubt she'd be charged based on what we know so far.  As to the kid, he's dead, so there isn't much to go over on his side of this.

 

If you're in the house, and the trouble comes to you, scan your lane and fire when ready.  Hell, if you walk in the front door after running errands and see people who came in through the back window or something, same advise.  But I'm wary if a person just decides to "Team America" it once they get a text message from their security company or any other situation where they know there is trouble.  There are just a lot of ways I can see this going wrong in a hurry.

 

ETA: This would probably be a good time for Chip or one of our resident lawyers to give us their input.

Edited March 20, 2016 by btq96r

[Omega]

Just because I'm being critical in looking at the shooters actions, doesn't mean I'm defending the thief.  I also don't think this lady committed a crime.  I don't know the exact details of FL law, but in TN, I doubt she'd be charged based on what we know so far.  As to the kid, he's dead, so there isn't much to go over on his side of this.
 
If you're in the house, and the trouble comes to you, scan your lane and fire when ready.  Hell, if you walk in the front door after running errands and see people who came in through the back window or something, same advise.  But I'm wary if a person just decides to "Team America" it once they get a text message from their security company or any other situation where they know there is trouble.  There are just a lot of ways I can see this going wrong in a hurry.
 
ETA: This would probably be a good time for Chip or one of our resident lawyers to give us their input.

And that is where you and I differ, I believe property owners have the right to protect what is theirs, by what ever means necessary, within the law of course. Again, the police have no duty to protect your property, so who else is there? If someone has the means and will to do so then more power to them. Maybe if more criminals end up dieing when commiting their crimes there would be less crime.

[Ugly]

Obviously the law showed up after the fact. She could have had her nose mashed in her face if she weren't armed.

Btr, It sounds like you are questioning her actions which sounds like you are on his side.

[n0rlf]

Seems any time we see an incident like this we see a conversation like this. Long story short, it is nothing more than Monday morning quarter backing. None of us were there, and we all know how well the media reports things. So it is all guessing.

 

In the end I think we should be allowed to protect not only our lives but our property as LE has proven they are incapable. Not their fault as such, just the ugly truth.

 

If enough folks were handled this way then it might get through the entitlement feelings and make the criminals realize that oops, that might get me killed. Maybe not a good idea.

 

But in reality I doubt it. My feelings is they will keep doing it regardless. 

 

Just like anything else the possible outcome needs to be harsh enough to get through to those that lack morals that there will be repercussions. If those repercussions are bad enough it might make up for the lack of morals. But again, I doubt it. 

 

In this case there is one less person in the world that arguably deserved to be removed. I will not lose any sleep over him.

[DaveTN]

Wait for the police? What if that takes 6 hours to not showing up? I've had it happen with calling three masked men with long guns, they never showed up.

Without more information from you, three masked men with long guns is a home invasion. I would be curious to know how they justified not responding. They had higher priority calls than a home invasion?

[Ugly]

Without more information from you, three masked men with long guns is a home invasion. I would be curious to know how they justified not responding. They had higher priority calls than a home invasion?

This was in Los Angeles several years ago, close to Compton. No idea of the outcome but the police didn't show up or get back to us. We never heard from whomever the thugs went to visit. We assumed after the fact they were going to see other bad guys.

I'm guessing the police have their hands full in that area, Al the time.

[bersaguy]

Back many years ago I caught two men attempting to steal some of my high dollar fishing rods out of my boat at 2AM with the help of Kasey. This was back about 12 years ago when Kasey was very aggressive and had actually attacked and bit one of them before I could get out side but she treed him up in my boat which is the only place he could go to get away from her. His buddy broke and ran only to be caught a few doors down hiding behind a neighbors out building. When I turned on carport lights he was standing in my boat bleeding a lot from Kasy's bites to his leg and hand. I called 911 and the dispatcher said that all of the patrol cars were busy and it might be 20 minutes or longer before they could get a car to my location.

 

I told the dispatcher that I was just going to shoot the guy and go back to bed and they would find him in the boat when they had time to come. She said "don't do that, we are on the way" and within about 30 seconds I heard sirens coming along with EMT's to my location. When police arrived they allowed the EMT's to get him out of my boat and begin treating his wounds. Kasey had taken a large chunk of meat out of his lower leg and when he tried to push her away she took off two of his fingers. I noticed Kasey at the end of her cable looking down at the neighbors house and I told the officers he had an accomplice and he was hiding a few doors down. They said they would call for a K=9 and I said just give me a minute and I unhooked Kasey and she disappeared into the darkness for a few seconds and very quickly the other bad guy came running as fast as possible right towards the officers with Kasey hot on is heels. I stopped her and the LEO's grabbed him.

 

I learned later that these guys were both illegals in the country and worked for the Lawn Care Service that cut my neighbors yard once a week. They investigated the lawn care Service and found out that the owner employed 23 illegals. They shut him down and arrested all of his employees.

 

I could have shot the guy but I was not at that moment in fear of my life and I would not have shot him had the police not arrived for 20 minutes. I just know that in this town at 2AM the police are not to busy to respond so I just gave them an incentive to come sooner because I

am not a person that kills for fun but I will in self defense of my life or fear on my life. I was more concerned about the guy bleeding out before they arrived. Kasey got him really good and back years ago she was a lot more aggressive than she is these days.

 

With all of this said with this OP no one was there so no one really knows the facts except the shooter. Either way the dead guy brought his own death by committing the crime............jmho

[conn_air7]

[quote name="btq96r" post="1368300" timestamp="1458437791"]"The thing I want to know is exactly at what point, and where did she see the kid, and what exactly transpired (the 2nd part will be incomplete without more witnesses, probably). Since the alarm alert came to her, and the police were on the way, she probably should have waited for the police to handle things, or at least clear the home to let her know it was empty. When a 50something female decides to check things out, she all but put herself into a situation where her only option for self defense is lethal. While I agree she has the right to defend her life, I would submit that she is culpable for putting herself into a situation she may well didn't have to be in.

In the big picture, what I'm worried about is people stretching "stand your ground" into some vigilante version of "movement to contact." Basically, if you wouldn't do something without a gun, why would you think it's okay to do so with a gun? Aside from the obvious issues of untrained, non-LEO personnel putting themselves into those kinds of situations, it's a fast way for those indifferent, or on the fence about gun rights to think the liberal side of things is the more relevant."



This is spot on! @btq96r


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Edited March 20, 2016 by conn_air7

[KKing]

Meh, can't really say I care where you stand on the issue, "you" being anyone. I live a good 20 minutes outside city limits. Police response to my house would be at least 30 minutes. If I were to receive a text from my alarm company you'd better believe I would be there in under 10 minutes. You can say it's because I carry a gun or whatever, but that's my property and my responsibility. I'm certainly not going to wait on police response that could take no telling how long. I'm no hero or "vigilante", but I ain't stupid either.

[nightrunner]

My thoughts,

I work my tail off all day everyday for what I have, which admittedly is less than a lot of people, but it's mine. I'm not about to let someone who sits around all day doing nothing but sucking up my tax dollars on government assistance and doing drugs to come and steal what I have. If you want what I have go get a job and earn it the right way.

[Pete123]

Back many years ago I caught two men attempting to steal some of my high dollar fishing rods out of my boat at 2AM with the help of Kasey. This was back about 12 years ago when Kasey was very aggressive and had actually attacked and bit one of them before I could get out side but she treed him up in my boat which is the only place he could go to get away from her. His buddy broke and ran only to be caught a few doors down hiding behind a neighbors out building. When I turned on carport lights he was standing in my boat bleeding a lot from Kasy's bites to his leg and hand. I called 911 and the dispatcher said that all of the patrol cars were busy and it might be 20 minutes or longer before they could get a car to my location.

 

I told the dispatcher that I was just going to shoot the guy and go back to bed and they would find him in the boat when they had time to come. She said "don't do that, we are on the way" and within about 30 seconds I heard sirens coming along with EMT's to my location. When police arrived they allowed the EMT's to get him out of my boat and begin treating his wounds. Kasey had taken a large chunk of meat out of his lower leg and when he tried to push her away she took off two of his fingers. I noticed Kasey at the end of her cable looking down at the neighbors house and I told the officers he had an accomplice and he was hiding a few doors down. They said they would call for a K=9 and I said just give me a minute and I unhooked Kasey and she disappeared into the darkness for a few seconds and very quickly the other bad guy came running as fast as possible right towards the officers with Kasey hot on is heels. I stopped her and the LEO's grabbed him.

 

I learned later that these guys were both illegals in the country and worked for the Lawn Care Service that cut my neighbors yard once a week. They investigated the lawn care Service and found out that the owner employed 23 illegals. They shut him down and arrested all of his employees.

 

I could have shot the guy but I was not at that moment in fear of my life and I would not have shot him had the police not arrived for 20 minutes. I just know that in this town at 2AM the police are not to busy to respond so I just gave them an incentive to come sooner because I

am not a person that kills for fun but I will in self defense of my life or fear on my life. I was more concerned about the guy bleeding out before they arrived. Kasey got him really good and back years ago she was a lot more aggressive than she is these days.

 

With all of this said with this OP no one was there so no one really knows the facts except the shooter. Either way the dead guy brought his own death by committing the crime............jmho

 

What an awesome story.  I wish there were more of these.

[K191145]

So you think nobody should protect their property? The police don't even have to protect you, or your property. Because the law doesn't allow claymores I choose to protect my property while being armed with a gun. The law allows me to use force to keep what I have and defend myself with lethal force should the thief choose escalation. I don't understand everyone's defense of these thiefs, they choose to put themselves in these situations, so let them reap what they sow.

 

Another thing, your property that's sitting in some evidence room will rust and rot before you get it back, my brother is finding out the hard way that Metro Nashville doesn't give a crap weather he gets his property back or not and they have it. This experience has made me far more likely to step in if i can, that's why I broke speed laws a few weeks ago going to his house when his alarm went off armed with my handgun which I always am and my 870 in the front seat. I was going to do a slow drive by at first, he has an old rundown house a couple of hundred yards down the street I was going to turn around in or maybe get out there. Anyway it was a false alarm and the deputy was already there AND, we found the kitchen door unlocked and I was right behind him when he cleared the house. Funny that he didn't lecture me about getting involved and also the alarm company calls me to make a decision to check it out or not.

 

edit: My brothers house was broken into almost a year ago, two thugs shot and stabbed a guy the day before so my brothers guns were not involved in that. Metro caught them with his property in Nashville somewhere. It's been almost a year now and my brother doesn't even have a clue when he can get his guns back and no one will help him or act like they care.

Also, that's exactly what you can be dealing with, these POS thugs tried to murder some guy the day before so treat all as if they are slime ball killers.

Edited March 21, 2016 by K191145

[JAB]

The thing I want to know is exactly at what point, and where did she see the kid, and what exactly transpired (the 2nd part will be incomplete without more witnesses, probably).  Since the alarm alert came to her, and the police were on the way, she probably should have waited for the police to handle things, or at least clear the home to let her know it was empty.  When a 50something female decides to check things out, she all but put herself into a situation where her only option for self defense is lethal.  While I agree she has the right to defend her life, I would submit that she is culpable for putting herself into a situation she may well didn't have to be in.

 

In the big picture, what I'm worried about is people stretching "stand your ground" into some vigilante version of "movement to contact."  Basically, if you wouldn't do something without a gun, why would you think it's okay to do so with a gun?  Aside from the obvious issues of untrained, non-LEO personnel putting themselves into those kinds of situations, it's a fast way for those indifferent, or on the fence about gun rights to think the liberal side of things is the more relevant argument.

 

 

 

"Confrontation" is a wide spectrum.  Assuming it escalated to the point of life endangerment is assuming a lot.

 

 

 

I wasn't making a judgement, just pointing out there are inconsistencies against a clear case for self-defense that I could see.  As noted above, there is are a few things I'm wondering about just where the confrontation was for starters.

 

My viewpoint is that it is her house and property and she had every right - legal and otherwise - to be there.  Claiming that she is somehow 'culpable' because she had the audacity to go into her own property is ludicrous, to me.  The person who was illegally there is the one who is culpable and, thankfully, the one who got dead.

 

Should she have waited for the police to arrive and make sure all was clear?  Would that have been the smarter thing to do?  Maybe.  Should she be considered somehow 'culpable' for entering her own property?  Absolutely not.  To my mind that is one of the major problems in this country - we no longer seem to recognize that the person who is committing the crime and illegally entering another person's residence, in this case Trevon, is 100% responsible for the outcome when they get killed as a result of their crime.

Edited March 21, 2016 by JAB

[DaveTN]

To my mind that is one of the major problems in this country - we no longer seem to recognize that the person who is committing the crime and illegally entering another person's residence, in this case Trevon, is 100% responsible for the outcome when they get killed as a result of their crime.

It started in 70’s-80’s when states stared doing away with their “fleeing forcible felon’s statutes”. When I was a cop we could (and did) shoot criminals running from burglaries, armed robberies, etc. Less of them ran than today. Today they run for anything and everything, felony, misdemeanor, traffic, suspended license; it doesn’t matter, no reason to stop.

If they get shot; they sue. If they get killed momma, (who couldn’t care less about them) gets a payday.

[m16ty]

If I come home and somebody is on my property, they are going to get confronted. I won't shoot them unless I feel threatened but they are going to get confronted. 

 

I'm sorry but I'm not just going to sit there watching them rob me while I wait for the cops to arrive. I'll also admit that I'd be less inclined to confront if I was unarmed, but probably still would with any other weapon I could find (stick, knife, or whatever) if it was available. 

 

Best thing is not come to my property looking to cause mischief. That way you can stay alive and I can stay out of legal trouble.