Don't Drive Drunk

[Capbyrd]

We don't know if the guy was trying to run over anyone. The article says the officer ordered Grubb to stop the vehicle "several times", which tells me he wasn't in a split second decision situation if he had time to shout "Stop" over and over. It also says the officer shot the driver as the vehicle was entering Hwy 321- doesn't sound like anyone was trying to run over anyone there, either. Nothing about Grubb driving toward officers, charging at them, etc. How is deadly force justified when the alleged assailant is leaving the scene?

Stupid can hurt, sure. How do we know the driver did anything at all? Maybe the store clerk called 911 because the buddy was drunk, or the one charged with drug paraphernalia smelled like weed. Was leaving the scene at that particular time the best decision? Probably not...but it warrants a death sentence?

As for this impacting anyone's feelings about cops...even knowing several personally, this sure ain't helping mine.


I'm a big fan of that whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing, so my question is guilty of what? As of now there's to evidence he was drunk, high, shoplifted anything, etc. Everyone in this thread is speculating that he was drunk, but nothing other than the subject line of the original post supports that. All I'm doing is speculating that he was innocent, because of that whole bit about "innocent until proven guilty". With the facts we have now, it's just as likely he was the sober designated driver as it is he was under the influence of anything.

He disengaged from the officers and tried to leave the scene. They had his name, his tag number, and his friends. It isn't like they couldn't have found him later. Again, with the information we have now there's no reason to believe his interaction with the officers was any different than a cop coming up to me on the street and saying "Excuse me sir, mind if I ask you some questions?"

If I say "No thanks, I'm good", turn and walk away that deserves being shot multiple times and killed?

That's not the world we live in anymore. People form opinions based on news reports. And those new reports are printed (or posted) with half truths and misinformation constantly. Court of public opinion tends to heavily favor the cops, especially when the "perp" is black. of course, the "perp" in this case is a honky but the cops will still get benefit of the doubt from most, even though we should be giving benefit of the doubt to all until we have a better idea of what actually happened.

[bersaguy]

Well I guess I should Ask...........if he was not guilty of something why did he run??????????? :confused:  innocent people just seldom run and the old saying of I was afraid don't work these days. All they do is get you in more trouble or dead........jmho

[Obiwan]

Here's a follow up story to the first one. It adds to the picture a little bit. (Google maps for anyone interested). And on ABC News. And on Reuters.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Obiwan

[Capbyrd]

Well I guess I should Ask...........if he was not guilty of something why did he run??????????? :confused: innocent people just seldom run and the old saying of I was afraid don't work these days. All they do is get you in more trouble or dead........jmho

Because more and more innocent people are realizing that SOME cops have a tendency to overstep.

It's the same reason that years ago, I stopped stopping in Walmart for the woman to check my bags or if the alarm is going off. I haven't done anything wrong and I'm not going to be treated like a criminal. If a cop is harassing me for something I am not guilty of, he ceases to be a cop to me and is just another citizen trying to potentially do me harm and I will treat him as such. Edited March 14, 2016 by Capbyrd

[Sam1]

My grandma was ran over by a drunk driver coming home from church.  She was walking across the street, got hit, stuck under the car and drug to death hundreds of feet down the road.

 

There are ZERO fucks given about this or any other drunk driver from behind this keyboard.

[Preacher357]

Honestly I don't have enough information to form an opinion on this.  I am pretty sure none of these three were useful citizens, but how worthless these people are or were has no bearing on whether deadly force was justified or not.    

[DaveTN]

If I say "No thanks, I'm good", turn and walk away that deserves being shot multiple times and killed?

Of course not. What does that have to do with this case?

[JohnC]

Yeah, as I said, I wasn't taking sides.

I was trying to make sense of his decision to leap in to the bed of a fleeing truck with a potentially impaired driver.

[56FordGuy]

Of course not. What does that have to do with this case?

 

 

Was the driver under arrest? Was he being detained? How is his situation different than the scenario I posed? He was choosing to end an engagement with law enforcement, which tends to put LEO off guard because they're trained to always have control of the situation. With someone else making a decision, the officer's control is gone. 

[TNWNGR]

Was the driver under arrest? Was he being detained? How is his situation different than the scenario I posed? He was choosing to end an engagement with law enforcement, which tends to put LEO off guard because they're trained to always have control of the situation. With someone else making a decision, the officer's control is gone. 

 

You appear to be fixated on officers being out of control here for some reason and throw out random opinions with no proof. It seems many here have simply taken it from granted the officer jumped into the truck bed to stop the driver. I don't know what he did, I'm not happy with what I've read and I'm completely disgusted reading all the anti-police-I hate cops-cops are criminals some of you are spewing out. If you want to act and sound like fools with nothing to prove as to the how and why then carry on.  

[Erik88]

That's not the world we live in anymore. People form opinions based on news reports. And those new reports are printed (or posted) with half truths and misinformation constantly. Court of public opinion tends to heavily favor the cops, especially when the "perp" is black. of course, the "perp" in this case is a honky but the cops will still get benefit of the doubt from most, even though we should be giving benefit of the doubt to all until we have a better idea of what actually happened.

 

Ironically, that's what everyone in this thread has done. Yourself included.

 

I understand what you guys are saying though and I agree he could have been innocent but fleeing from the scene is not the appropriate response. Again, you guys are putting blame on the officer for killing him when the man would still be alive had he just agreed to be handcuffed.

 

For a group of people that is usually the first to reference personal accountability I'm a surprised to see the comments here.

[Erik88]

......

Edited March 15, 2016 by Erik88

[TNWNGR]

Most of you don't have any ideal of how much individual police departments can differ from others or the effect that the number of sworn officers can have upon the quality and caliber of the personnel. I don't know jack about the Lenoir PD but its a small agency in a bedroom community for the greater Knoxville Demographic area. http://lenoircitypolice.com/home I'm sure we'll be seeing more on this incident.

[btq96r]

I'm still undecided if the actions were right or wrong.  I suspect they could be either and will be examined thoroughly...but the tactics seem a bit Hollywood to me, and that's not a good thing.

 

 

Officers job is to go home after every shift.

 

If that's what any officer thinks is priority #1, they're in the wrong profession and should find a job without the inherent dangers of police work.

[Murgatroy]

My grandma was ran over by a drunk driver coming home from church.  She was walking across the street, got hit, stuck under the car and drug to death hundreds of feet down the road.

 

There are ZERO ####s given about this or any other drunk driver from behind this keyboard.

I lost a cousin to a 6th or better offense DUI driver. 

 

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. 

 

If it comes back that this tool was drunk during this altercation, I have zero pity on him. And I venture a guess based on the accomplices, and the extensive records of them all, for DUI, that he was in fact under the influence of something more than caffeine and nicotine.

 

If he was 100% sober and deacon of the local church on his way home from feeding the homeless, I might be able to drag out some pity. Maybe. Guilty is as guilty does. You run, you just forfeited your presumed innocence IMO. It all comes back to your choice of being tried by twelve, or carried out by six. If I am innocent, I am going to put my faith in twelve of my peers.  

[56FordGuy]

You appear to be fixated on officers being out of control here for some reason and throw out random opinions with no proof. It seems many here have simply taken it from granted the officer jumped into the truck bed to stop the driver. I don't know what he did, I'm not happy with what I've read and I'm completely disgusted reading all the anti-police-I hate cops-cops are criminals some of you are spewing out. If you want to act and sound like fools with nothing to prove as to the how and why then carry on.  

 

 

There's a difference in being out of control, and not having control. Being out of control would be screaming and thrashing about, while not being in control means someone else is making the decisions. 

 

Up until the last set of news articles was posted, everyone here was using the exact same information. My only difference was that I presumed Mr. Grubbs was innocent, where everyone else was assuming he was a drunk driver. Considering one of the last news stories states that he was charged with DUI at least the presumption of innocence is gone, but the fact remains that a DUI conviction does not rate the death penalty- especially administered in the parking lot of a gas station by one officer before any trial has taken place. 

[Fourtyfive]

Wow , holding my tongue on this one ....

[JohnC]

Let's keep it civil all. No hating on the LEO nor hating on folks giving opinions based on what we know so far. :up: Edited March 15, 2016 by JohnC

[DaveTN]

Was the driver under arrest? Was he being detained?

Yes, he was being detained, he was not free to leave and he was disobeying a lawful order to stop, especially when the Officers life was in danger.

[56FordGuy]

Yes, he was being detained, he was not free to leave and he was disobeying a lawful order to stop, especially when the Officers life was in danger.

 

 

How was the officer's life endangered? The suspect was leaving the scene. If an assailant is running away, is it ok to shoot at them?

 

Suppose he was guilty of DUI, the fact remains that does not warrant a death sentence. Whether it should or not is a different discussion, but as of now it does not; especially with no trial. The officer had plenty of time to order him to stop multiple times, which points toward having plenty of time to get out of the way of a vehicle, especially since the suspect was attempting to leave the scene. I have a very hard time believing this officer's life was in any danger, that the officer did not put himself in while attempting to "somehow end up" in the back of a truck before shooting Mr. Grubbs multiple times. 

[2.ooohhh]

How was the officer's life endangered? The suspect was leaving the scene. If an assailant is running away, is it ok to shoot at them?

 

Suppose he was guilty of DUI, the fact remains that does not warrant a death sentence. Whether it should or not is a different discussion, but as of now it does not; especially with no trial. The officer had plenty of time to order him to stop multiple times, which points toward having plenty of time to get out of the way of a vehicle, especially since the suspect was attempting to leave the scene. I have a very hard time believing this officer's life was in any danger, that the officer did not put himself in while attempting to "somehow end up" in the back of a truck before shooting Mr. Grubbs multiple times. 

 

I'm doing my best to hold out any judgement until I see at least one of the 3 cameras that supposedly caught this encounter on video, but I did read this earlier in the ABC piece and found it interesting.

 

"The chief said it's not clear how the officer wound up in the bed of the pickup and there were really tight conditions between the gas pump and a curb."

 

I'm fairly certain the chief has seen the video, and I suspect the officer may have ended up in the truck's bed to avoid being pinned between the truck and the pump. Which if someone were trying to pin you with a moving vehicle just seconds before. .  could very quickly raise the stakes in my mind as to whether deadly force is justified. I still think the videos should be released though.

[JohnC]

I'm doing my best to hold out any judgement until I see at least one of the 3 cameras that supposedly caught this encounter on video, but I did read this earlier in the ABC piece and found it interesting.
 
"The chief said it's not clear how the officer wound up in the bed of the pickup and there were really tight conditions between the gas pump and a curb."[/size]
 
I'm fairly certain the chief has seen the video, and I suspect the officer may have ended up in the truck's bed to avoid being pinned between the truck and the pump. Which if someone were trying to pin you with a moving vehicle just seconds before. .  could very quickly raise the stakes in my mind as to whether deadly force is justified. I still think the videos should be released though.

That would make more sense. That first article by the OP leaves out a ton of detail.

[R_Bert]

That would make more sense. That first article by the OP leaves out a ton of detail.

There was not much other at the time I posted.  LCPD has it's share of stories, but even I think this was a reflex, not Rambo. (and I am betting it was an aw-****! moment for the officer when he figured out where he was)

Edited March 15, 2016 by R_Bert

[Possumslayer]

And again driving is a privilege not a right...

[DaveTN]

How was the officer's life endangered? The suspect was leaving the scene. If an assailant is running away, is it ok to shoot at them?
 
Suppose he was guilty of DUI, the fact remains that does not warrant a death sentence. Whether it should or not is a different discussion, but as of now it does not; especially with no trial. The officer had plenty of time to order him to stop multiple times, which points toward having plenty of time to get out of the way of a vehicle, especially since the suspect was attempting to leave the scene. I have a very hard time believing this officer's life was in any danger, that the officer did not put himself in while attempting to "somehow end up" in the back of a truck before shooting Mr. Grubbs multiple times.

As I have explained to my kids; court is not held on the street. If there is a hearing on whether or not there was probable cause or whether or not the guy was drunk, that will be done in a courtroom; not on the street. You ask if he was under arrest or was being detained. Based on the story of a Police Officer pointing a gun at him and yelling for him to stop; yes, he was being detained, No, he was not free to leave.

But it appears (from the story) the guy was drunk and the Officer was trying to deal with multiple arrests. I don’t really care if he was drunk or not; be was detained and he was not free to leave. I also don’t care whether the cop jumped in back because he had nowhere else to go or he just jumped in the back when pursuing the guy; does not matter. He was in the bed of a truck attempting to capture a fleeing suspect. The Officers situation met the requirements for the use of deadly force. He was in danger of death or great bodily harm, he ordered the suspect to stop multiple times (according to the stories) and then he shot him.

He didn’t get a death sentence for DUI. It has escalated far beyond that; the suspect escalated it. The suspect made bad choices and he paid for them with his life. I hope the cop will be okay. I have been a Police Officer, I respect Police Officers, but I can’t for the life of me see who would want to be a cop in the climate we have today. Soon no one will want this job and we will have the bottom of the barrel as Police Officers. Sad.