Your gun and the Post Office

[dralarms]

Well we have all heard this one before.

Is there ANY information in writing that states whether or not we have to be a victim when we go into a post office (not the retail store, just checking the mail at the boxes)?

I'll be honest I have carried my firearm into the post office for 4 years . I quit doing this since I found out that it is supposed to be a "federal" building. Initially I was under the impression that the "public access" area was considered just that.

My post office has a sign posted at the entrance to the "retail" side, but NOT on the main entry doors to the building.

I would like to get something I can use to determine what is the correct assumption.

Thanks.

[Guest dpeneguy]

I asked one of the admins of a forum I run because he works at the post office and this was his reply

<HR class=hrcolor width="100%" SIZE=1>

I'll try to get you something in writing, but it is against the law to possess a firearm in or on the grounds of the U.S. Post Office. If us employees have firearms in our car, we park in a lot NOT owned or leased by the Postal Service.

[Guest dpeneguy]

He also add

Postal Operations Manual:

Quote

124.59 Dogs, Other Animals, and Weapons and Explosives

a. Dogs and other animals: Dogs and other animals, except those used to assist persons with disabilities (service animals), may not be brought on postal property for other than official reasons. A "service animal" may be any species, breed, or size and may or may not be licensed, certified, or marked as a service animal. Service animals can assist persons with a wide range of disabilities, whether a disability is visible or not, including physical and mental disorders.

b. Weapons and explosives: No one on postal property may carry or store firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, whether openly or concealed, for other than official reasons.

Note: All classified postal units must display in lobbies Poster 7, Rules and Regulations Governing Conduct on Postal Property. No other signage referring to dogs or service animals should be posted in lobbies or on entry doors. See 125.342.

[Guest GlocKingTN]

That pretty much summed it up, if he knows what he's talking about!

[Guest db99wj]

H

b. Weapons and explosives: No one on postal property may carry or store firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, whether openly or concealed, for other than official reasons.

So, what if you argue that you are "officially" protecting yourself from bad guys that could be hiding in the corner?

Disclaimer: I believe if you argue the above fact that you would lose, but who says what is official and what is not?

[wareagle]

Also, what about mailing a longarm??? I guess you have to be officially mailing it?

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Isn't the Postal Operations Manual the "employee handbook" for the PO?

The law that I find says only that armed robbery of a post office is bad and that is what is posted on the doors. IT IS NOT POSTED that no guns are allowed. In the law it refers to UNLAWFUL carry of firearms. I have a permit. My carry is lawful.

[Guest jackdog]

Hmmm and stamps are very expensive.

[Guest Steelharp]

The Hendersonville PO has it plainly posted, with legal references that no firearms are to be carried on the premises.

[towerclimber37]

I guess all this was in response to those postal workers who went on shooting sprees?

regardless, it pretty much sounds to me like they just don't want you to carry or possess on their property..which is in contravention to the 2nd amendment isn't it? just my 2 cents...but if they don't like me carrying lawfully in the post office..I will be happy to go to fedex..they at least don't mind.

[dunndw]

the way its written...your breaking the law just having it in the car in the parking lot.

[dralarms]

In that case I'll have to take my chances. I'm not coming home and disarming just to check my mail. That would be a load of bull. Of course most of the restrictions placed on us a honest carry permit holders is bull anyway.

[Marswolf]

This is not a simple matter. I wish someone would ask the AG for an opinion.

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000930----000-.html

TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 44 > § 930

§ 930. Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities

(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.

( Whoever, with intent that a firearm or other dangerous weapon be used in the commission of a crime, knowingly possesses or causes to be present such firearm or dangerous weapon in a Federal facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.

© A person who kills any person in the course of a violation of subsection (a) or (, or in the course of an attack on a Federal facility involving the use of a firearm or other dangerous weapon, or attempts or conspires to do such an act, shall be punished as provided in sections 1111, 1112, 1113, and 1117.

(d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to—

(1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;

(2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such possession is authorized by law; or

(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.

(e)

(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm in a Federal court facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.

(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to conduct which is described in paragraph (1) or (2) of subsection (d).

(f) Nothing in this section limits the power of a court of the United States to punish for contempt or to promulgate rules or orders regulating, restricting, or prohibiting the possession of weapons within any building housing such court or any of its proceedings, or upon any grounds appurtenant to such building.

(g) As used in this section:

(1) The term “Federal facility†means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.

(2) The term “dangerous weapon†means a weapon, device, instrument, material, or substance, animate or inanimate, that is used for, or is readily capable of, causing death or serious bodily injury, except that such term does not include a pocket knife with a blade of less than 21/2 inches in length.

(3) The term “Federal court facility†means the courtroom, judges’ chambers, witness rooms, jury deliberation rooms, attorney conference rooms, prisoner holding cells, offices of the court clerks, the United States attorney, and the United States marshal, probation and parole offices, and adjoining corridors of any court of the United States.

(h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and ( shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.

This is the typical post office poster. Note that d(3) is not listed on the poster. Most of the POs I've been in also do not post this "conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility".

Anyone want to be a test case?

[SHbicycle]

So if it is hunting season I can carry my model 700 into a federal building?

[Marswolf]

So if it is hunting season I can carry my model 700 into a federal building?

Yeah, sure.... Go for it.

[molonlabetn]

You'd probably have to explain what your purpose for hunting inside the building is...

[dralarms]

(1) The term “Federal facility” means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.

This tells me that if it's in your auto, locked up you are good. The parking lot is NOT part of the building, and they don't "preform their regular dutied" there.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.

The LAWFUL PURPOSE would be the legal carry of your firearm within the parameters of the state law and under the issuing authority of the State of Tennessee. Lawful carry of a firearm with a valid permit is a lawful purpose........

[Marswolf]

The LAWFUL PURPOSE would be the legal carry of your firearm within the parameters of the state law and under the issuing authority of the State of Tennessee. Lawful carry of a firearm with a valid permit is a lawful purpose........

Tell that to the Federal judge....

[DaveTN]

It is illegal. Federal law trumps state law.

Because of the wording “the lawful performance of official duties” I would say that even an off duty LEO would be in violation if he carried.

It would be interesting to see if there are any cases.

[Marswolf]

Actually, I'm not at all sure that it is illegal.

There are three situations where the law does not apply. Performance of duty by a LEO, legal possession by a Fed or Military, and incident to hunting or other lawful purposes. I think self protection under state law is a lawful purpose. The Postmaster General can't just ignore the hunting and lawful purpose part because he doesn't like it. He doesn't make law, he only makes policy within the confines of the law.

I think packing in the post office with a permit is probably legal.

I just don't want to be the test case.

[Guest crytes]

I think the lawful pourposes messes up their intention which is to disarm people entering their building. However don't store owners and such have the right to disallow weapons on their premisis. If so then the postmaster might very well post a simple no weapons and be leagal within that right. Also federal law might trump state, but who defines "legal pourpose"?

Crytes

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Actually, I'm not at all sure that it is illegal.

There are three situations where the law does not apply. Performance of duty by a LEO, legal possession by a Fed or Military, and incident to hunting or other lawful purposes. I think self protection under state law is a lawful purpose. The Postmaster General can't just ignore the hunting and lawful purpose part because he doesn't like it. He doesn't make law, he only makes policy within the confines of the law.

I think packing in the post office with a permit is probably legal.

I just don't want to be the test case.

Hmmm.....isn't that much what I was saying in my earlier post with....

"(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.

The LAWFUL PURPOSE would be the legal carry of your firearm within the parameters of the state law and under the issuing authority of the State of Tennessee. Lawful carry of a firearm with a valid permit is a lawful purpose........ "

Someone said federal law trumps state law. That is NOT the issue. The two are NOT in conflict here.The issue is whether my LAWFUL carry is a LAWFUL purpose. If carrying a pistol with a permit is lawful, then carrying it with a permit is lawful under this statute. This statute was no doubt written before permits were widely available so its meaning is vague NOW THAT THEY ARE WIDELY ISSUED. But carrying ILLEGALLY- with NO PERMIT- would NOT be a LAWFUL PURPOSE.

So Mars, if LEGALLY carrying a pistol with a STATE ISSUED PERMIT falls under the "Lawful Purposes" loophole,(as the state issued permit is certainly LAWFUL) then it is legal to carry a gun in the post office.

So we are in agreement?

[Marswolf]

Oh yeah, I was just giving a bit of verbiage to your idea.

But I was also giving a warning that you better have deep pockets and a good lawyer when you do it.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

That could be said of almost anything!