Recent "Carport Break In" Riverside Plantation, West Nashville

[tacops]

I would be concerned about any situation that could put me before a "jury of my peers" and err on the side of caution.  Especially since about half of the jury pool nationwide are likely Clinton or Sanders voters.

[JayC]

I would agree, taking it to a jury is not a good plan ever...  but the statements that garages by default aren't covered by castle doctrine were incorrect...  

 

Somebody did mention in this location the garage might be an open air car port, and while technically covered by Castle Doctrine, since they do have a roof, I'd be much more concerned about a self defense shooting personally compared to say a unattached enclosed garage. 

 

But, if I was in fear for my life by happening upon a criminal unlawfully in my garage at night, I wouldn't be worried about how the DA is going to see it, I'm going to protect myself because the VAST majority of the time no TN DA is going to touch such a case. 

 

I would be concerned about any situation that could put me before a "jury of my peers" and err on the side of caution.  Especially since about half of the jury pool nationwide are likely Clinton or Sanders voters.

[Fourtyfive]

Thanks to all! That's a lot of good info...I guess I will go out and buy some pepper spray. I am to old to go to jail...
 
Thanks again!
 
aj

I would not recommend pepper spray against car vandals, if you see them, cut the lights on and call the cops.

[MemHeli]

There are five conditions that have to be met to claim self defense.  

What are the five conditions you're referencing?

[monkeylizard]

1. I was in fear of my life
2. I was in fear of my life
3. I was in fear of my life
4. I was in fear of my life
5. I was in fear of my life

[DaveTN]

• I was in fear of my life
• I was in fear of my life
• I was in fear of my life
• I was in fear of my life
• I was in fear of my life

Doesn’t matter. I’m sure you have seen the recent cases of people that are now in prison using that defense. (Even while shouting it while on the phone with the Police)

Generally the test is would a reasonable person be in fear of death or great bodily harm. Jurors (or a Judge) will consider themselves reasonable and decide what they would have done. If they decide your claimed fear was unreasonable; you may be hosed.

Staying out of jail is as important as self-defense. At least to me it is.

[MemHeli]

double post somehow...

Edited March 18, 2016 by MemHeli

[monkeylizard]

It was more of a comment on the 5-reasons alluded to by Pete123. I'm saying there's only one reason, and that's it. True that it does need to pass the reasonableness test as well.

[Pete123]

The five elements are below.  The idea is that situations vary.  I have a friend whose brother crashed a party and was drunk.  

 

The home owner ran him off with a gun, followed him two blocks as he was retreating and shot him in the head.  This was at 4:00 in the morning.  It was in Texas.  The police weren't even going to charge the shooter, but enough neighborhood residents complained and they finally charged the shooter.

 

The law of self defense would tell you that this is an open and shut case. There are also fully justified shootings where people go to jail for 10-20 years.  

 

My goal is to come as close as possible to meeting all five conditions.

 

Innocence - I think this means that you aren't the aggressor.  An example would be getting into a road rage contest and pulling over on the side of the road to cuss them out.  It escalates and you shoot him.  Instead of trying to avoid escalation, this driver willing escalated.

 

Imminence - the threat has to be imminent.  If they are 50 yards away and talking trash they are not an imminent threat unless they have a gun.  This is the one where most people get caught up.  They shoot the other person before the threat is imminent.

 

Proportional - If I'm a 30 year old guy in great shape and 90 year old grand pa who can hardly walk gets after me, I can't shoot him.  He doesn't have the means to hurt me.  (Unless he has a weapon of some kind)

 

Avoidance - Did the person try to avoid the shooting.  The guy in the road rage example above will have a hard time arguing that he tried to avoid the shooting.

 

Reasonableness - Would a reasonable person think this is reasonable.  Example here are when people shoot someone and claim they were in fear for their life, yet everyone knows that's BS.

 

There are three things that impact how the law is applied.  The statutes, the jury instructions and previous court decisions.

 

This thread has a lot of statutes that are quoted and discussed.  Remember, the actual statute is 1/3 of the equation.

[Omega]

Doesn’t matter. I’m sure you have seen the recent cases of people that are now in prison using that defense. (Even while shouting it while on the phone with the Police)Generally the test is would a reasonable person be in fear of death or great bodily harm. Jurors (or a Judge) will consider themselves reasonable and decide what they would have done. If they decide your claimed fear was unreasonable; you may be hosed.Staying out of jail is as important as self-defense. At least to me it is.

While I generally agree that some prosecutor wanting to make their bones or some bleeding heart jury may get you locked up, even in a good shoot; I think staying out of jail is way down in my priorities when it comes to self-defense. I would rather be alive in court than dead, just saying.

A criminal has already made the decision to risk a confrontation, which has a possibility for violence, the victim has not and they are not mind reader's so there is no telling what a criminal will do. So while Monday morning quarterbacks may see things differently it's the two in the confrontation at the end of the day that have the best view. And if there is only one side of the story, well...

[Roche]

The last couple of nights, multiple cars have been broken into in my neighborhood.............rights when it comes to protecting my cars or my neighbor's cars?

To the original question / scenerio:

1. My car - a few CDs, loose change, and a tin of Altoids is not worth getting out of bed, let alone meeting a jury of my peers. I'll call my insurance agent.

2. Neighbor's car - I'll call him and recommend he call his insurance agent.

[Hershmeister]

Thanks to all! That's a lot of good info...I guess I will go out and buy some pepper spray. I am to old to go to jail...

Thanks again!

aj

Just lock your car up. Best deterrent

[enfield]

Yea, my instructor was also a lawyer and I have spoken with many a LEO and lawyers, have yet to have one publicly support my point of view; but privately, quite another story.  In NC, while stationed there in the mid 80s I had a dog stolen.  While talking to the officer, SD came up in a conversation, at the time no castle doctrine existed.  You were expected to retreat before lethal force was allowed.  I straight up told him I would not retreat as my front door was between my bedroom and the kids.  He smiled and said, "we normally don't worry too much about perps, just be sure to drag him back in if he falls out".  I took the last part as a joke, but got the feeling that the first part was standard practice.

 

I was told this same thing by an Augusta GA police officer.  If you shoot them on your doorstep, or if they fall out the door, drag them in before calling.

[monkeylizard]

I think that's said tongue-in-cheek. Dragging the perp inside would likely show up during the scene investigation and can only make you look bad. Tampering with evidence and all that.

[QuietDan]

So you can threaten them and hold them at gun point but ya can't shoot em.

 

 Unless they lunge at you, putting you in fear for your life or of grievous bodily harm, then all bets are off. 

[bersaguy]

I had a buddy run up on a great deal on tazers about two months ago and he bought me one. It is very similar to the ones used by the police. What are the laws regarding the use of one of those in the event you would catch a perp stealing your property and you light him/her up?

[DaveTN]

I was told this same thing by an Augusta GA police officer.  If you shoot them on your doorstep, or if they fall out the door, drag them in before calling.

That was before CSI.

[monkeylizard]

I had a buddy run up on a great deal on tazers about two months ago and he bought me one. It is very similar to the ones used by the police. What are the laws regarding the use of one of those in the event you would catch a perp stealing your property and you light him/her up?

 

They're considered less-than-lethal weapons, so I don't think there'd be a problem in using one to prevent theft of property. But I'm not a lawyer and did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

[K191145]

Fact. If you have property stolen and the thieves are caught in Metro, the D.A. or whoever is in charge of stolen property doesn't give a rats ass weather you get your property back or not.

Don't have a carport but I do have a tool shed that doesn't have much anyone could sell for much. But, if I do ever see or hear someone in it, THEY WILL BE CONFRONTED. It's up to them at that point what they want to do, their best option is to drop my stuff and leave, their worst option would be to come towards me in a threatening manner because I will have a grip on my gun. Doesn't matter who thinks what I should do, that's my plan and as for knowing what the police and a jury will do, no one here really knows that for sure, it's all just speculation. 

[dralarms]

I was told this same thing by an Augusta GA police officer.  If you shoot them on your doorstep, or if they fall out the door, drag them in before calling.

They are giving you bad advice. Even if the shoot is good they can charge you with evidence tampering. Shoot them and leave them lay.

[DaveTN]

Fact. If you have property stolen and the thieves are caught in Metro, the D.A. or whoever is in charge of stolen property doesn't give a rats ass weather you get your property back or not.
Don't have a carport but I do have a tool shed that doesn't have much anyone could sell for much. But, if I do ever see or hear someone in it, THEY WILL BE CONFRONTED. It's up to them at that point what they want to do, their best option is to drop my stuff and leave, their worst option would be to come towards me in a threatening manner because I will have a grip on my gun. Doesn't matter who thinks what I should do, that's my plan and as for knowing what the police and a jury will do, no one here really knows that for sure, it's all just speculation.

Okay, we get it. But that isn’t what he asked. He asked a question about the use of force in this state. And it does matter who thinks what; no one gives a rolling rip down a razor blade what you think. Between a good Prosecutor and the judge’s instructions the jury will be considering what THEY (a reasonable person) would have done. And if they find beyond reasonable doubt that you were not in immediate danger of death or great bodily harm; you go to prison. And that is the fact. Many people ask these questions because they know that not only do they have a duty to protect their family; they have a duty to their family to stay out of prison.

I remember a time when I could shoot a fleeing burglar; and believe that is the way it should still be. But it isn’t.

[Roche]

....But, if I do ever see or hear someone in it, THEY WILL BE CONFRONTED. It's up to them at that point what they want to do, their best option is to drop my stuff and leave, their worst option would be to come towards me in a threatening manner because I will have a grip on my gun. Doesn't matter who thinks what I should do, that's my plan..... 

 

That's certainly not speculation.  That's premeditation.  So what's the shelf life of a post on the internet?  For your sake I hope no one visits the tool shed that doesn't have much.

[bersaguy]

They're considered less-than-lethal weapons, so I don't think there'd be a problem in using one to prevent theft of property. But I'm not a lawyer and did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

LOL, that almost makes me wish I would have had a tazer when those guys were trying to steal my fishing rods out of my boat. I would have wanted to light one of them up and watched him flop around on the floor like a fish out of water.................. :dirty: 

[K191145]

Okay, we get it. But that isn’t what he asked. He asked a question about the use of force in this state. And it does matter who thinks what; no one gives a rolling rip down a razor blade what you think. Between a good Prosecutor and the judge’s instructions the jury will be considering what THEY (a reasonable person) would have done. And if they find beyond reasonable doubt that you were not in immediate danger of death or great bodily harm; you go to prison. And that is the fact. Many people ask these questions because they know that not only do they have a duty to protect their family; they have a duty to their family to stay out of prison.

I remember a time when I could shoot a fleeing burglar; and believe that is the way it should still be. But it isn’t.

 

Yea, nothing in the law that says you can't confront a trespasser or thief and the law also says if someone threatens your life you can use deadly force. They will be confronted.

Edited April 27, 2016 by K191145

[K191145]

That's certainly not speculation.  That's premeditation.  So what's the shelf life of a post on the internet?  For your sake I hope no one visits the tool shed that doesn't have much.

 

What, planning on confronting someone trespassing on your property? Planning to protect yourself against possible death or bodily harm? Don't give a woopdeedoo what the shelf life on an internet post is. Go back a re-read what I said in the original post.

They will be confronted.