One of the greatest military pics of all time

[Pete123]

We all know and love this photo.  It was taken 71 years ago on Feb 23rd.  This is on Mt. Suribachi on Iwo Jima.  The flag was raised by five Marines and a sailor.  In a nod to the Army and Air Force, there are a couple of pics of them below.

 

 

 

 

 

The pic below is from the Battle of Midway.  Midway was the turning point of the war in the Pacific.  

 

Edited March 3, 2016 by Pete123

[monkeylizard]

In a nod to the Army and Air Force, there are a couple of pics of them below.

 

 

 

I'm still looking for the pic of the Air Force.

[E4 No More]

We all know and love this photo.  It was taken 71 years ago on Feb 23rd.  This is on Mt. Suribachi on Iwo Jima.  The flag was raised by five marines and a sailor.  In a nod to the Army and Air Force, there are a couple of pics of them below.

 

 

 

 

 

The pic below is from the Battle of Midway.  Midway was the turning point of the war in the Pacific.  

 

Ahem...Marines; not marines. :)

[Mark A]

I'm still looking for the pic of the Air Force.

 

Yep, those pictures of the Air Force in WW2 are all still classified...

[Pete123]

ok, spelling corrected.  Apologies on plane not being Air Force, will get one later today.  Look for a pic of the P51 Mustang in action, assuming that those were part of the Air Force.

[monkeylizard]

WW2 ended on August 15, 1945. The US Army Air Force didn't become the US Air Force until September 18, 1947.

 

The USAF did fly the P-51 Mustang though, well into Korea when they were replaced by the new-fangled jet fighters by the end of 1953. They saw some limited service in specialty roles up through the 1960s, but very few.

Edited March 3, 2016 by monkeylizard

[Dustbuster]

More men died on Iwo Jima than all we lost in the Middle East in 10 years. For bonus points name the photographer or 1 of the soldiers that raised that flag

[peejman]

Check out these collections of photos from WWII.  http://www.theatlantic.com/photo/categories/world-war-ii/

 

The Atlantic has a ton of great photo collections.  http://www.theatlantic.com/photo/categories/

[Mike.357]

More men died on Iwo Jima than all we lost in the Middle East in 10 years. For bonus points name the photographer or 1 of the soldiers that raised that flag

 

 

Ira Hayes may have been there.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX1pLlmMcmk

Edited March 3, 2016 by Mike.357

[monkeylizard]

Joe Rosenthal took the photograph. He was awarded a Pulitzer for it.

[Pete123]

Ok, Mike.357 - Yes, Ira Hayes was one of the marines.  Johnny Cash did a song about him as well.

 

Now, apparently the Air Force didn't exist as a stand alone organization in WWII.  Having said that, allow me to introduce the Mustang P51.  The P51 was to the air what the Garand was for infantry.  A truly bad mamma jamma.

 

Casualty rates for Allied bomber crews flying from England to bomb Germany were 70%.  Two things contributed greatly.  First, the defensive guns of the bombers did not compete well with Axis fighters.  Next, Allies didn't have long range fighters that could escort them all the way.

 

The P51 changed that.  They could go all the way and took performance to a new level.  The P51 to the German Air Force was like the Garand to a bolt action K98.  

 

I'm sure that we have members who can clarify and add.

 

Now for the pic:

 

 

 

 

[monkeylizard]

The P51 changed that.  They could go all the way and took performance to a new level.  The P51 to the German Air Force was like the Garand to a bolt action K98.  

 

 

 

The first part of that statement is true, but the second, maybe not so much. The Fw-190 and the Bf-109 (Messerschmitt 109) were not quite so far behind the P-51. The P-51 had a big advantage in pilot visibility and who sees the other first often fired first and won. +1 to the Mustang. It was also faster (though only slightly more so than the Fw-190) and had a longer range. The range thing was great for our bombers, but really didn't matter when it was fighter v. fighter. What that range did was allow the P-51 to get in the fight in the first place which is what changed the casualty rate so drastically. I suspect that if the older P-40 had the range of the P-51, it would have been a formidable fighter in its own right against the Nazis and would have kept that casualty rate lower from the start. Overall, the P-51 performed better at high altitudes while the German fighters performed better at low altitudes. Depending on the mission, either side could have had the advantage, but the P-51's high altitude advantage certainly helped on the bomber escorts. Luftwaffe pilots would often dive for the deck upon engaging the P-51s trying to get them to follow to where they'd have the advantage. The Fw-190 was tougher than the P-51, more like the older P-47 Thunderbolt but not quite as tough as that tank with wings. The Bf-109 outgunned the Mustang, especially with its late-in-the-war bomber-attack armament of 2 x 13mm machineguns, 2 x 20mm machineguns, and 1 x 30mm cannon. The P-51 carried 4 or 6 x cal .50 machine guns depending on model.

 

In the end, The P-51 was the better aircraft, but a skilled Luftwaffe pilot was a force to reckon with in either the Fw-190 or the Bf-109. I'd say that before the P-51 it was like fighting K98s with trench guns. After the P-51 it was like fighting K98s with Lee Enfield Mk 4s.

Edited March 3, 2016 by monkeylizard

[DMark]

Upon looking at this picture I bet I'm not the only Army guy who doesn't get a lump in their throat and a chill down their spine.....

 

....., after seeing that some troop left the WD-1 wire behind. 

 

 

Trust the 1SG didn't make him go back and get it!

[E4 No More]

Call me old fashioned, but I think the P-51 was the sexiest plane ever made. :)

[monkeylizard]

Sexiest warplane ever made, sure (the P-38 is a close second), but the Hughes H-1 racer was the sexiest airplane ever made in my book.

 

Edited March 3, 2016 by monkeylizard

[peejman]

The first part of that statement is true, but the second, maybe not so much. The FW-190 and the Bf-109 (Messerschmitt 109) were not quite so far behind the P-51. The P-51 had a big advantage in pilot visibility and who sees the other first often fired first and won. +1 to the Mustang. It was also faster (though only slightly more so than the FW-190) and had a longer range. The range thing was great for our bombers, but really didn't matter when it was fighter v. fighter. What that range did was allow the P-51 to get in the fight in the first place which is what changed the casualty rate so drastically. I suspect that if the older P-40 had the range of the P-51, it would have been a formidable fighter in its own right against the Nazis and would have kept that casualty rate lower from the start. Overall, the P-51 performed better at high altitudes while the German fighters performed better at low altitudes. Depending on the mission, either side could have had the advantage, but the P-51's high altitude advantage certainly helped on the bomber escorts. Luftwaffe pilots would often dive for the deck upon engaging the P-51s trying to get them to follow to where they'd have the advantage. The FW-190 was tougher than the P-51, more like the older P-47 Thunderbolt but not quite as tough as that tank with wings. The Bf-109 outgunned the Mustang, especially with its late-in-the-war bomber-attack armament of 2 x 13mm machineguns, 2 x 20mm machineguns, and 1 x 30mm cannon. The P-51 carried 4 or 6 x cal .50 machine guns depending on model.

 

In the end, The P-51 was the better aircraft, but a skilled Luftwaffe pilot was a force to reckon with in either the FW-190 or the Bf-109. I'd say that before the P-51 it was like fighting K98s with trench guns. After the P-51 it was like fighting K98s with Lee Enfield Mk 4s.

 

 

The P-40 was a low and slow plane like the BF-109.  Speed is life in a dogfight and the  P-51 had a good 100 mph advantage as well as 10k ft ceiling advantage.  The 30mm cannon on the German planes was devastating and outgunned the Allied planes, but the speed and altitude advantage of the P-51 was too much to overcome. 

[ken56]

I read a great book a while back on the guys involved in the raising of the flag in that picture. I forget the title and author but those guys met a sad fate after returning home. The battle for Iwo Jima was one of the most brutal to have survived and not been affected to the soul by it. There were actually 2 raisings of the flag on the mountain and the pic is from the second one.

[monkeylizard]

Speed isn't everything in a dogfight. If it were, the Me-262 would have eaten our boys for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. It outpaced the P-51 by 100 mph plus it was armed with not 1, but 4 of those devastating 30mm cannons...

 

... but couldn't turn worth a darn. I see your point though. The Bf-109 and the P-51 were similar in their maneuverability. In that case, I'll take the faster plane every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

 

 

In the end, I think most dogfights ended with the winner having been the better pilot as neither the P-51 nor the Luftwaffe fighters had a HUGE advantage over the other. In the cases of evenly matched pilots and removing dumb-luck from the equation, the man in the P-51 had a better chance of winning than the one in the FW-190 or Bf-109.

[E4 No More]

I believe the P-51 had a better climb rate too. I remember reading a story of how a P-51 pilot escaped a 109 in a climb. The 109 had to pull out well before the P-51.

[Oh Shoot]

I read a great book a while back on the guys involved in the raising of the flag in that picture. I forget the title and author but those guys met a sad fate after returning home. The battle for Iwo Jima was one of the most brutal to have survived and not been affected to the soul by it. There were actually 2 raisings of the flag on the mountain and the pic is from the second one.

 

First one, by SSgt. Louis R. Lowery, a photographer with Leatherneck magazine about 10:30 am:

 

 

The second famous one, by Joe Rosenthal, was some 2 hours later.  And it was a grab shot. While piling up some rocks to stand on for a better angle, he realized he was about to miss the shot, so he grabbed the cam and took a quick shot without ever looking through the viewfinder. Didn't really know what he had until film was developed later on Guam.

 

Rosenthal, btw, working for AP at the time, had been previously rejected as a US Army photographer because of his poor eyesight. :)

 

- OS

Edited March 3, 2016 by Oh Shoot

[Pete123]

The P-40 was a low and slow plane like the BF-109.  Speed is life in a dogfight and the  P-51 had a good 100 mph advantage as well as 10k ft ceiling advantage.  The 30mm cannon on the German planes was devastating and outgunned the Allied planes, but the speed and altitude advantage of the P-51 was too much to overcome. 

 

I'm with you that the P 51 deserves tremendous respect.  Consider the following:

 

Here is a quoted text out of "WWII: Luftwaffe Combat Planes & Aces’.  This is how a German ace thought about the P-51:

 

“The P-51 was something else. It was an awful antagonist, in the truest sense of that word and we hated it. It could do everything we could do and do it much better. “

[peejman]

Speed isn't everything in a dogfight. If it were, the Me-262 would have eaten our boys for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. It outpaced the P-51 by 100 mph plus it was armed with not 1, but 4 of those devastating 30mm cannons...

... but couldn't turn worth a darn. I see your point though. The Bf-109 and the P-51 were similar in their maneuverability. In that case, I'll take the faster plane every day of the week and twice on Sundays.


In the end, I think most dogfights ended with the winner having been the better pilot as neither the P-51 nor the Luftwaffe fighters had a HUGE advantage over the other. In the cases of evenly matched pilots and removing dumb-luck from the equation, the man in the P-51 had a better chance of winning than the one in the FW-190 or Bf-109.

Had the 262 been deployed as an attack aircraft in any numbers with trained pilots and reliable engines, it would have dominated the skies. But with none of those being reality, it was too little, too late.

The P-51 vs the 190 was a pretty even match, performance wise. The edge was with the American pilots who typically had much more experience and will to fight.

This is a really good book that gives considerable insight into the Luftwaffe toward the end of the war..... http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0425255735/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1457050706&sr=8-1&pi=SY200_QL40&keywords=a+higher+call+by+adam+makos&dpPl=1&dpID=51YHGJz%2BQlL&ref=plSrch

[Pete123]

More men died on Iwo Jima than all we lost in the Middle East in 10 years. For bonus points name the photographer or 1 of the soldiers that raised that flag

 

 

I read a great book a while back on the guys involved in the raising of the flag in that picture. I forget the title and author but those guys met a sad fate after returning home. The battle for Iwo Jima was one of the most brutal to have survived and not been affected to the soul by it. There were actually 2 raisings of the flag on the mountain and the pic is from the second one.

 

There is no doubt that the fighting at Iwo Jima was horrific.  They way it played out was that the fighting was worse the closer we got to Japan.  One of the big reasons we dropped the nukes on Japan was that they expected one million American casualties to invade Japan.

 

Following are some numbers between Iwo Jima and Okinawa.  These numbers reflect only American losses

 

Iwo Jima

 

6,821 killed
19,217 wounded

 

Okinawa

 

20,195 dead

• 12,520 killed in action

55,162 wounded
26,000 psychiatric 

 

There were many allies in the fight in Europe.  The Pacific Theatre was almost all the US.  

 

I truly appreciate the sacrifices made.  Someone may need to clarify, though I believe the Pacific was almost all the Navy and the Marines.

[K191145]

Sexiest warplane ever made, sure (the P-38 is a close second), but the Hughes H-1 racer was the sexiest airplane ever made in my book.

 

 

You mean that's sexier than this plane?   :)

 

[URL=http://smg.photobucket.com/user/JMH42/media/Super%20Guppy_zpswkfkqypv.jpg.html][/URL]

[monkeylizard]

You like big planes and you can not lie?