10mm Choices ....

[shotgunshooter]

I ordered some Corbon.  Same order as the Buffalo Bore.  Have not fired it.  I also got some Freedom Munitions range ammo.  also not fired that.  So far I have fired the Sig ammo in it and some remaufactured ammo from Reloader's Bench.  Neither was BAD and both very accurate but both seemingly pretty anemic.  I did not measure velocity or anything, just fired it at paper and steel on a few range trips.  Was waiting until i had more to really fire the weapon.  It was SO hard to find locally.  I did not want to fire it ALL off till I had a few hundred rounds in reserve.  Now I have about 1000 so Ill be able to get a few 200 round (or so) range trips under my belt.  I was afraid if I shot off the 150 rounds that I could find on the shelves, I would have a gun with NO ammo (which is a crime in my mind).  I don't know what all the guys with Glock 10mms do?  They must sell a lot of them?  I see them everywhere.  I know 10 mm is not as popular as many rounds but weapons are becoming more and more popular and ammo is seemingly NOT.  Maybe I am just unlucky?

It's that damned ole 40 Short and Weak. It done polluted all them young children's minds. No I don't see any reason for it to be popular unless you handgun hunt, are a collector, or reload. Cool cartridge for an semi auto but just doesn't seem to have a place in TN IMHO. Still kicks 40's a## though because Murica.

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[sybo]

I got a few...

This ammo is the SHI$!!!!!!!!!!

Edited August 14, 2016 by sybo

[KahrMan]

I'm partial to Underwood ammo.

[MrsMonkeyMan2500]

Well great. Now range time is on the menu today! 

BTW, sold my g20 to a great member here. Finally got it in NiB-X. So now all my Glocks are purdy, you know, for a Glock...

[ma6907]

14 hours ago, shotgunshooter said:

It's that damned ole 40 Short and Weak. It done polluted all them young children's minds. No I don't see any reason for it to be popular unless you handgun hunt, are a collector, or reload. Cool cartridge for an semi auto but just doesn't seem to have a place in TN IMHO. Still kicks 40's a## though because Murica.

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I seemingly miss why I should be a 40 hater.  I think it is a great round.  I have a number of 40s--Glock 23 and 27, Sig 229 Elite (with SRT)  and 224 (Extreme with SRT).  Probably a few more I am forgetting.  I know the 9mm people will argue that new technology elevates the 9mm and I agree.  Does that same technology not elevate the 40?  When I look at muzzle energy (which I think is a very underrated metric), the 40 is still a very compelling round.  Plus I have a lot of the ammo and it is still cheap and easy to find.  And seemingly (probably because everyone is changing to 9mm) getting cheaper?  I hope everyone but me starts hating 40, more cheap ammo for me

 

 

Edited August 14, 2016 by ma6907

[shotgunshooter]

I seemingly miss why I should be a 40 hater.  I think it is a great round.  I have a number of 40s--Glock 23 and 27, Sig 229 Elite (with SRT)  and 224 (Extreme with SRT).  Probably a few more I am forgetting.  I know the 9mm people will argue that new technology elevates the 9mm and I agree.  Does that same technology not elevate the 40?  When I look at muzzle energy (which I think is a very underrated metric), the 40 is still a very compelling round.  Plus I have a lot of the ammo and it is still cheap and easy to find.  And seemingly (probably because everyone is changing to 9mm) getting cheaper?  I hope everyone but me starts hating 40, more cheap ammo for me



 

You keep talking like that Comms will come back. Remember all pistol rounds suck and there's no sense in really getting caught up in the caliber masturbation.

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[ma6907]

I guess I missed the discussion.  I agree that all handgun calibers are a trade off and that one can get much better results from long guns (I have those, too), but what you get with a handgun is portability.  I understand the muzzle energy trade off, but much harder to conceal my Remington 870.  Also it is kind of heavy.  I have a Colt Anaconda 44 magnum.  It gets pretty good muzzle energy, but also kind of heavy.  And very shiny.  

[ma6907]

I have a different light on the 229 now.  These are older pics that I had easy access to, while laying on my a_$ on a lazy Sunday.

[shotgunshooter]

I guess I missed the discussion.  I agree that all handgun calibers are a trade off and that one can get much better results from long guns (I have those, too), but what you get with a handgun is portability.  I understand the muzzle energy trade off, but much harder to conceal my Remington 870.  Also it is kind of heavy.  I have a Colt Anaconda 44 magnum.  It gets pretty good muzzle energy, but also kind of heavy.  And very shiny.  

I'm just playing with you. Were you around for comms? My main point with my last post was that I don't think my body is gonna tell the difference between any pistol caliber. Blood loss and loss of blood pressure are what incapacitates people who are shot unless the CNS is hit.

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[ma6907]

I apparently missed the Comms discussion.  I have participated in enough of those type discussions to know I want no part of them.  I know quite a bit about terminal ballistics AND about human physiology.  Those discussions are generally filled with "bigger is better" people (who are wrong), "my favorite is better than your favorite" (who are kind of right in that their favorite is likely better for them), "I am smarter than you" (which is usually false), "I just want to argue with you" (ok.  Im out), and various other usual suspects.  Only the names change.  If you participate in a few of these, you have read them all.

 

[ma6907]

And yes, blood loss and blood pressure does incapacity people--but typically not instantly.  Typically,  a human will be incapacitated by such an injury in around 2 min.  A CNS trauma is the only way to instantly incapacitate a human with a handgun caliber weapon.  Notice I said CNS trauma, not CNS "shot."  A human can be incapacitated by CNS trauma that does not involve actual penetration--such as a percussion injury.  There are many reported cases of humans being "knocked out" by being hit by a projectile from a firearm that did not penetrate, and a few reports of humans being knocked unconscious from the percussive blast when not even shot at ALL.  One such case was the famous 1986 Miami FBI shootout where one suspect was knocked unconscious when his co-conspirator reached from the drivers side and fired a .223 round from a  Ruger Mini-14 rifle out the passenger window with the muzzle right in his face.  It knocked him out even though he was not hit or even fired at, specifically (he was fired at, but not that shot that knocked him out).  Despite typical chat room experts professing otherwise, a thru and thru shot to the heart will NOT always reliably incapacitate an attacker instantly.  In the Miami shootout, the other suspect was shot in the  lung severing several vessels (and lodging against his heart)very early in the shootout he continued the gunfight for 2 min and 42 seconds and fired off over 100 more shots--AFTER the fatal shot hit him.  He had 1.3 liters of blood in his lung on autopsy.  The shot that stopped him (but not the shot that killed him) was a shot that "bruised his spinal cord" due to temporary cavity blast from a .357 Magnum.  Interestingly both suspects were shot in the head and torso by MANY shots (Platt, the driver, was hit in both feet, his dominant hand, several times in the head and several in the torso, a total of 12 times with the fatal shot being one of the first--and the shot that ended the fight being a cns trauma that would not have been fatal but did knock him out.

 

[willis68]

10 hours ago, KahrMan said:

I'm partial to Underwood ammo.

 

Underwood is all I use now, I have tried damn near every other brand and none can touch Underwood 

[ma6907]

I will for sure look into Underwood.  Let me know if you want to part with a box?  The Dan Wesson looks nice.  I have a Dan Wesson .44 magnum with interchangeable barrels.  It is a BEAST.  Curiously, it is my wife's favorite pistol to shoot at the range.  Large frame .44 magnum loaded with .44 special.  8 inch barrel and that thing is a tack driver.  You ought to see the other guy's faces at the gun club when she brings that thing out and starts mowing down the knock down targets.

[ma6907]

The Federals you have there are some of the "Anemic" rounds I was describing.  424 f/lbs of muzzle energy.  That is 9mm territory.  If I wanted 424 ft/lbs in a 10mm projectile, I would shoot .40.  In fact, the Federal JHP .40 S%W DOES deliver 400 f/lbs which is only negligibly less--functionally the same energy.  That is PITIFUL for a 10 mm.

[shotgunshooter]

I apparently missed the Comms discussion.  I have participated in enough of those type discussions to know I want no part of them.  I know quite a bit about terminal ballistics AND about human physiology.  Those discussions are generally filled with "bigger is better" people (who are wrong), "my favorite is better than your favorite" (who are kind of right in that their favorite is likely better for them), "I am smarter than you" (which is usually false), "I just want to argue with you" (ok.  Im out), and various other usual suspects.  Only the names change.  If you participate in a few of these, you have read them all.

 

My friend, comms wasn't a discussion he was a way of life. I don't think that velocity or muzzle energy do anything in a handgun since it isn't fast enough. I believe the only think that matters is penetration but this is a discussion that has been beat to death. As Eminem says "my two cents is free."

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[sybo]

Kahrman, that's a Purdy sight!!!!

[KahrMan]

11 hours ago, ma6907 said:

The Federals you have there are some of the "Anemic" rounds I was describing.  424 f/lbs of muzzle energy.  That is 9mm territory.  If I wanted 424 ft/lbs in a 10mm projectile, I would shoot .40.  In fact, the Federal JHP .40 S%W DOES deliver 400 f/lbs which is only negligibly less--functionally the same energy.  That is PITIFUL for a 10 mm.

The Federals are pretty anemic compared to Underwood.  The Underwood 180 Gr XTP JHP is putting out 676 ft. lbs.  That's almost 63% percent more ft. lbs. at the muzzle.  

 

Let me know if you are ever going to be down in the Brentwood area and I will hook you up with a box to try out.

[ma6907]

9 hours ago, shotgunshooter said:

My friend, comms wasn't a discussion he was a way of life. I don't think that velocity or muzzle energy do anything in a handgun since it isn't fast enough. I believe the only think that matters is penetration but this is a discussion that has been beat to death. As Eminem says "my two cents is free."

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I certainly do not disagree.  That is another way of phrasing what I already said.  Penetration IS the most important factor for most handgun rounds.  there is NOT enough energy in most handgun rounds to "knock someone down" and or disable someone unless the round somehow imparts trauma to the CNS.  This does not NECESSARILY mean sever the CNS but that is the only reliable way.  For this reason, i am always curious why people who carry smaller rounds (lkie .380) would want hollow points.  The less energy in a round, the more you need to maximize penetration.  I carry a 380 occasionally (as attire dictates) and when I do I carry FMJ.  Size of the hole is FAR less important than depth of the hole.  On in some cases MAKING a hole.  12 or so inches of ballistics gel penetration is kind of the minimum.  Most good .380 rounds can roughly approach that.  hitting 10-11.5 on the average (average by my eye.  I have not calculated the actual average).  I would however pretty much completely agree with the statement that penetration  IS the most important determination.  That is why the FBI uses penetration as the metric to which a round must penetrate as the determining factor.  AND why we have the 10mm round today AND why we subsequently have the .40 today--because of the penetration. Dr Martin Fackler, an MD who worked with the FBI, is the pioneer of this concept and I have read the majority of his writings.  He was a pretty sharp fella, and he very clearly spells this out in his book, which is 900 pages long and VERY interesting (to me).

[ma6907]

On 8/14/2016 at 3:39 PM, shotgunshooter said:

I'm just playing with you. Were you around for comms? My main point with my last post was that I don't think my body is gonna tell the difference between any pistol caliber. Blood loss and loss of blood pressure are what incapacitates people who are shot unless the CNS is hit.

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So, now I am curious.  I have been in and out of this forum for a while.  Don't post much--mainly just read stuff--but I cannot seem to find (when searching) the "Comms discussion".  I am aware of different "caliber masturbation" conversations, but not this particular one.  I will say I have a pretty good reason that I carry .40 most of the time--because that is what the majority of LE carries.  In studying the writings of Massad Ayoob, he suggests that people carry what local LE carries.  For me that is .40.  He says it is much easier to defend in court (if you end up there) because it is easier to argue that it is what the cops carry--and they are not out to KILL people.  I am personally concerned with defending my actions in court since it is a VERY real possibility that I will end up there after an armed encounter.  I am totally unconcerned about "caliber masturbation" as I know that they are all (for the most part) the same.  I DO believe that there are 2 which in my mind have better ballistics--.357 Sig and 10mm.  For a while I attempted to carry .357 Sig. but the ammo is SO much more expensive that I found it to be impractical.  For 10mm, the case of Harold Fish turned me off of that round for carry.  If you have not heard of Harold Fish, look him up.  Briefly, he was a retired school teacher that carried a 10mm for bear defense in Arizona.  He was attacked by a mentally ill attacker and shot and killed him.  He was convicted of 2nd degree murder because he carried the 10 mm round that is "too hot for the FBI".  His case was ultimately overturned after he spent several years in prision and spent over 1 millon dollars.  I don't have that much time or money--so I go with Massad's recommendation--carry what the local cops carry.  Again, for me that is .40

Edited August 17, 2016 by ma6907

[shotgunshooter]

So, now I am curious.  I have been in and out of this forum for a while.  Don't post much--mainly just read stuff--but I cannot seem to find (when searching) the "Comms discussion".  I am aware of different "caliber masturbation" conversations, but not this particular one.  I will say I have a pretty good reason that I carry .40 most of the time--because that is what the majority of LE carries.  In studying the writings of Massad Ayoob, he suggests that people carry what local LE carries.  For me that is .40.  He says it is much easier to defend in court (if you end up there) because it is easier to argue that it is what the cops carry--and they are not out to KILL people.  I am personally concerned with defending my actions in court since it is a VERY real possibility that I will end up there after an armed encounter.  I am totally unconcerned about "caliber masturbation" as I know that they are all (for the most part) the same.  I DO believe that there are 2 which in my mind have better ballistics--.357 Sig and 10mm.  For a while I attempted to carry .357 Sig. but the ammo is SO much more expensive that I found it to be impractical.  For 10mm, the case of Harold Fish turned me off of that round for carry.  If you have not heard of Harold Fish, look him up.  Briefly, he was a retired school teacher that carried a 10mm for bear defense in Arizona.  He was attacked by a mentally ill attacker and shot and killed him.  He was convicted of 2nd degree murder because he carried the 10 mm round that is "too hot for the FBI".  His case was ultimately overturned after he spent several years in prision and spend over 1 millon dollars.  I don't have that much time or money--so I go with Massad's recommendation--carry what the local cops carry.  Again, for me that is .40

Comms N Bombs got banned for some comments about killing protestors. He was a 10mm fanboy. I thought he was a great dude but he he would go too far in some of his comments. He liked to be confrontational and do things for the lulz.

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[ma6907]

4 minutes ago, shotgunshooter said:

Comms N Bombs got banned for some comments about killing protestors. He was a 10mm fanboy. I thought he was a great dude but he he would go too far in some of his comments. He liked to be confrontational and do things for the lulz.

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I like to SHOOT the 10mm and keep one by my bed, but for CARRY, I like to carry the .40 for the reasons outlined above.  Also, I have MANY friends in LE who bring me .40 ammo for free.  As such I have a huge amount of defensive LE .40 rounds (cop rounds).  In fact I usually take it with me to the range and trade it to guys there for FMJ at the range.  They seem happy and it frequently shoots cleaner and I don't have to buy much.  Many of the "2nd Amendment IS my permit" crowd does not like Massad Ayoob, but he is the definitive expert on defense in court of a defensive shooting--so I personally listen to him.

[FJCrusing]

Glock 20 Gen4.  I pretty much only shoot Underwood & Atlanta Arms Ammo.   Both feed great! 

[MrsMonkeyMan2500]

1 hour ago, FJCrusing said:

Glock 20 Gen4.  I pretty much only shoot Underwood & Atlanta Arms Ammo.   Both feed great! 

Well now I just got jealous... 

[Handsome Rob]

This entire thread is giving me mahogany.....

[MrsMonkeyMan2500]

On August 17, 2016 at 9:37 PM, FJCrusing said:

Glock 20 Gen4.  I pretty much only shoot Underwood & Atlanta Arms Ammo.   Both feed great! 

I found one for sale the other day. I'm waiting until Friday for my pay check so he can't say anything! Not that I need it since I already have the NiB-X. But I had major envy with this and I don't know why!