The ATF doing some trolling.

[101]

I was given the chance to tour this area several years ago. Our tour guide was a Texas federal judge who was very well versed in this. When the feds showed up to serve the warrant they first went to the local sheriff to inform him of this. He told them if they wanted Koresh he would just call him and have him come in as he and David played domenos fairly often. The feds told him not to bother they would handle it and the rest is history. Also within days of the end the whole place was bulldozed, buried and a chain link fence was installed around the whole place.

 

He also walked back and forth to town, by himself all the time.  The feds, cops, ATF, sheriff and the locals all knew this.  They could have picked him up ANYTIME they wanted too.  He was not hiding.

 

They wanted to make an example of him and his compound.  Period.  It really is that simple.

[Grunt67]

Comms absolutely right. The Feds had every opportunity to serve a warrant in town. They chose not to do so. THey wanted to make a statement, "We're in charge & don't you ever forget it". That's what they did.

Koresh was not saint, but he was made the scapegoat.

Same situation at Ruby Ridge with Randy Weaver & family.

Bunch of jack booted thugs.

[Chucktshoes]

That is really screwed up!!!! I feel sorry for the 82 women and children...the man who was at the center of the warrant was a self proclaimed god,,,,and who wasn't acting very God like. How many times on this forum has it been stated when it comes to some one getting killed or shot when not complying to law officers... it is always stated if they had complied with the law enforcement order they would have not been harmed....so why is it different in this case???? A judge signed the warrant ....if they would have complied with the warrant no one would have been harmed!!! Their day in court would have came and no one would have got harmed Were the officers suppose to walk way???? Many things when wrong but to write the above is simply wrong!!!!

*edited to add* the first shots fired were by the ATF and resulted in a blue on blue friendly fire caused injury.

You are free to believe whatever you want to believe and voice it howsoever you want...for the most part. And for the most part I pretty much enjoy reading your posts. After reading this bile I've changed my mind...I think what you said was and is reprehensible.

While I am a strong and vocal critic of the tactics and actions of many legitimate LE organizations, I don't wish the harm upon most officers as I do the jackboots of Burn All Toddlers First. That's because the BATF isn't in any way a legitimate LE agency. What happened in Ruby Ridge, Waco, and Fast & Furious aren't aberrations. They are only the most publicly known episodes in a pattern of behavior that goes back many decades. The wanna be Rambos over at F-troop have a long history of use of excessive violence, blank warrants, raids and imprisonment of folks over minor paperwork failures, just outright made up charges and general abuse of the public in the most sickening displays of government malfeasance. They exemplify everything that's wrong with and makes folks despise LE. When I reference Nuremberg defense not holding water, I mean it. Not just the way they enforce the laws, but the laws themselves are an immoral act of violence against the people. The Branch Davidians in Waco were as justified in their use of force in defense against the ATF as were the Jews in Warsaw ghetto uprising of 43. The ATF are our American Shutzstaffel. Edited February 29, 2016 by Chucktshoes

[Chucktshoes]

So, on a slightly related note, anybody wanna make bets on how long before I start having "paperwork issues" with my purchases? [emoji38]

[Dustbuster]

I was at Waco post seizure, the branch davidians were STILL there. Seeing the burned toys and bicycles, and other stuff was very un nerving. The BD's stayed and rebuilt.I had taken the opportunity to chat with a few of the remainders....Ill never forget their stories.....

A lot of this started as complaints made to Texas Dept of Children services over kids playing too close to a busy street........That busy street was a busy as a cave full of stolen car parts in grundy county. all ridiculous allegations. What did koresh do?? anything anyone came up with. was he right? probably not, was the compound exploited? u bet your ass it was. If the ATF raided a predominantly black church, and did to them what they did to koresh, LA, NY,and Chicago would still be smoldering.......Ive also worked w guys that were there during the siege.....they even have remorse but wont discuss it.... sad day in US history. It was a day that said you can frame someone for murder,without producing a body, raid a church and level it because, and decide to maim and kill innocents instead of running a safe gauntlet to snare the wanted.Janet Reno and a few others will probably burn in hell for allowing their heathens to exercise poor judgement...I only pray this never happens again. When I see Nashville PD allowing protestors to block I 65 of all trafficby those protesting the questionable death of a underage boy, who assaulted an officer, I wonder why did they incinerate the BD church that they knew was habituated by small innocents? I know that answer is the same as why most of the elected officials in sumner county are not incarcerated......two words: selective enforcement.

back to the more toilets for women legislature......

[RED333]

As I like it here on the forum I will not begin to tell how I fell on this subject!

[Spots]

Janet Reno and a few others will probably burn in hell for allowing their heathens to exercise poor judgement...I only pray this never happens again.

It has already happened again. A huge police presence opened fire on a crowd of bikers in Waco last summer, over a fist fight, then arrested every rider at the COC meeting, 173 total. Slapped them with million dollar bonds each and smeared them in the media to make it seem like they arrested a bunch of gang members. Those were men and women a lot like the rest of us. But for the most part nobody cares because they were biker scum.

Sent from behind the anvil

[DaveTN]

It has already happened again. A huge police presence opened fire on a crowd of bikers in Waco last summer, over a fist fight, then arrested every rider at the COC meeting, 173 total. Slapped them with million dollar bonds each and smeared them in the media to make it seem like they arrested a bunch of gang members. Those were men and women a lot like the rest of us. But for the most part nobody cares because they were biker scum.

Sent from behind the anvil

They were patched members and hang arounds. Nine people were killed, 20 wounded. I’ve not seen anyone accuse the Police of starting the shooting; it’s clear they didn’t.

Comparing a biker shootout to Waco makes no sense. Are we supposed to care? Because no, I could care less if a gang of thugs get in a shootout and get shot by the cops. Edited March 1, 2016 by DaveTN

[Spots]

They were patched members and hang arounds. Nine people were killed, 20 wounded. I’ve not seen anyone accuse the Police of starting the shooting; it’s clear they didn’t.

Comparing a biker shootout to Waco makes no sense. Are we supposed to care? Because no, I could care less if a gang of thugs get in a shootout and get shot by the cops.

I'm a patched member. Does that make me a criminal? All kinds of clubs, independents and motorcycle ministries were present at that COC. Try read or watching something other than the MSM narrative some time. Several of those hurt or killed were veterans. Many of the 176 arrested had done absolutely nothing wrong except show up to a meeting. And I could care less if some bully wearing a badge gets his brains blown out violating people's rights. One more dead thug from Americas largest criminal gang. See how that works? We all have different definetions of thugs, so you can kiss my ass.

http://insanethrottle.com/2016/02/12/waco-pd-caused-deadly-fight-in-hopes-of-rico-charges/

Sent from behind the anvil Edited March 1, 2016 by Spots

[DaveTN]

I'm a patched member. Does that make me a criminal? All kinds of clubs, independents and motorcycle ministries were present at that COC. Try read or watching something other than the MSM narrative some time. Several of those hurt or killed were veterans. Many of the 176 arrested had done absolutely nothing wrong except show up to a meeting. And I could care less if some bully wearing a badge gets his brains blown out violating people's rights. One more dead thug from Americas largest criminal gang. See how that works? We all have different definetions of thugs, so you can kiss my ass.

http://insanethrottle.com/2016/02/12/waco-pd-caused-deadly-fight-in-hopes-of-rico-charges/

Sent from behind the anvil

Man, I’m so tired of criminals getting shot and blaming the Police: it’s ridiculous.

[Spots]

Man, I’m so tired of criminals getting shot and blaming the Police: it’s ridiculous.

No point arguing with you. Your just like 98% of cops. You believe police can do no wrong and will vouch and cover for any officer and any action he takes in the name of "justice". And cops wonder why so many citizens hate them.

Sent from behind the anvil

[DaveTN]

No point arguing with you. Your just like 98% of cops. You believe police can do no wrong and will vouch and cover for any officer and any action he takes in the name of "justice". And cops wonder why so many citizens hate them.

Sent from behind the anvil

I’ve never supported a cop that is wrong. But yes, I support the Police; I’m not ashamed of that. That 98% figure shows how you feel. Cops don’t wonder why people don’t like them; they know.

[Dolomite_supafly]

While it is good in theory, not good in practice. Unless there is footage, or enough witnesses it boils down to a he said/she said situation and the police officer is usually given more credence. Unless there is very good evidence of malicious accusation I think its better to have any unfounded complaints expunged after a certain amount of time. That way, the officer is put on notice, just in case, and his record gets cleared if no other like situations arise. The same can be done for the accuser, if that individual has a record of filing complaints it can be used to file charges if the need arises.

But it NEVER happens that way. Every time I had complaints against me it was put in my file, even if it were unfounded. And I assume they are still in my file today.

Even if the complaint was expunged there would still be lingering effects. There would be tumors that would only grow more wild as time went on.

Just saying that when someone complains there are lingering effects even if the officer was right.

i will say this that if a complaint is in fact founded against an officer it is rarely a surprise for his peers. Most officers know who the problem officers are before it comes to light.

[Grayfox54]

Yeah, there are some bad cops/agents out there. Especially on the Federal level. But I believe that the vast majority are good people who are just trying to do a job.

I place the blame on administrations that not only allow, but encourage this sort of behavior. Its all about money. Every alphabet agency in the federal government is in a constant battle for funding. Those that make the big busts and get the headlines get the most of our tax dollars. 

I believe that the Waco incident was intended to be a fund raiser. Let's go bust this crazy cult, bag 'em on some weapons charges and throw in some child abuse. Arrest about 100 of them and grab the big headlines. Yep, that will get us a lot of attention and a big raise in next year's budget. :up:

Only the Branch Davidians didn't co-operate and the whole thing went to crap real quick.  :eek:  UH OH! Time to back peddle, regroup and cover up. But that didn't go so well either. Mistakes were made and more mistakes were made trying to save asses. 

Don't blame the agent, blame the agency.

[Omega]

I don't know there seems to be quite a bit of evidence that it was started by rival gangs; even statements by gang members themselves.  As for rounding everyone up, with as much chaos there that day I can see it, but there should only be charges against those that actually had something to do with it.  A RICO charge, IMHO is not the right way to do it.  Check these series of videos, even if you ignore the reporting there can be cases made for at least manslaughter.  There is at least one death clearly shown, and a few long guns with what looked to be either an Mini14 or possibly a 10/22.

 

http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2015/10/30/waco-biker-shooting-lavandera-pkg-erin.cnn/video/playlists/waco-texas-biker-gangs-shooting/

 

Do police sometimes over react?  Yes, undoubtedly; but to charge that 98% is stretching it a bit.  I would do backside support in small towns for our unit and would be there before and after the training mission.  I would hear all the "little black helicopter" tin hat rhetoric spoken in restaurants and would just SMH.  To think any one of us would participate in taking over the US...this to say that I know how many LEOs must feel when they hear this stuff.

[56FordGuy]

[quote name="Grayfox54" post="1362820" timestamp="1456842386"
Don't blame the agent, blame the agency.[/quote]

They choose to hold that job and engage in those activities. "Just doing my job" is a weak cop out, no pun intended.

Every single person is responsible for their own actions.

[Defender]

He also walked back and forth to town, by himself all the time.  The feds, cops, ATF, sheriff and the locals all knew this.  They could have picked him up ANYTIME they wanted too.  He was not hiding.

 

They wanted to make an example of him and his compound.  Period.  It really is that simple.

Not sure where the truth lies, but I guess a little on both sides....but I have noticed one thing, the authorities often seem to want to make a 

'statement' with the way they conduct some of these arrests or raids.  Publicity seems to be uppoermost in their minds a lot of the time.  I have often read that that Koresh could have been easily taken  in town or on the road he ran on every day...Ive wondered if there was any other reason than publicity that so many of these high profile arrests are made  so...publicly.  Locally, ive noticed that periodically, agencies will conduct raids against sex criminals that have not complied with some of the rules  that were imposed when they release them.  Now, dont mistake my comments as any kind of support for child abusers or anything....but tell me one good reason to have heavily armed and armored SWAT style assault teams conduct these raids or roundups of these violators.  Im not talking about when there is evidence or allegations of a resumption of past behavior, but situations that are often a result of poor judgement like failing to re register an address after a recent move or something like that? The news media is notified in advance and often invited to come along and tape the events.  Publicity.  Again, Im not defending AT ALL the abad guys here, just questioning the tactics sometimes used by the good guys, or maybe more aptly put, the political hacks leading the good guys.

[Dolomite_supafly]

Public raids, as in with reporters, are only done to show the jurisdiction is being tough on crime. It is generally done more often during election years. In my jurisdiction they conduct quite a few raids in the months leading up to an election. And every raid that results in an arrest often has reporters on scene as it is happening. Then there is some story about how the sheriff, district attorney and the local government is tough on crime. This is the same reason plea deals are offered, to boost conviction rates so the DA can proudly proclaim they are tough on crime with a high conviction rate but in reality they are generally really soft on crime. In cases where a trial would be a slam dunk they offer a reduced sentence. They claim it is to save the taxpayers the cost of a trial but it does not matter because either way that time will be filled with another case.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Dolomite_supafly

[Grayfox54]

.but I have noticed one thing, the authorities often seem to want to make a 

'statement' with the way they conduct some of these arrests or raids.  Publicity seems to be uppermost in their minds a lot of the time

That's my point. Its all about money. Headlines equal bigger budgets. 

 

They choose to hold that job and engage in those activities. "Just doing my job" is a weak cop out, no pun intended. 

Every single person is responsible for their own actions.

Don't get me wrong. I'm by no means excusing abuse of power by anyone. I've known a lot of LEOs in my time and the vast majority are good people who just want to protect and serve. How they go about that is directly affected by their superiors. When the agency you work for not only allows, but encourages the abuse of authority, even good men can fall victim to the siren's call of power. I seriously doubt that any "bad cop" started out that way. Over time they learned just what they could get away with until that becomes their norm. 

I totally agree that the individual is responsible for their own actions. But absolute power corrupts absolutely.