The ATF doing some trolling.

[Chucktshoes]

Have I ever mentioned how much I really, really hate those guys?

[Raoul]

Revisionist history. The hallmark of governments everywhere.

[Caster]

If they pretend they did nothing wrong, the next generation will have no reason to think they did. God knows no one pays attention to history anymore. Edited February 29, 2016 by Caster

[Jamie Jackson]

Good God. I miss America.

 

Where the hell did it go?

 

I remember watching (on TV) the "compound" burn like it was yesterday. I don't recall anything "heroic" about it.

[FUJIMO]

If they pretend they did nothing wrong, the next generation will have no reason to think they did. God knows no one pays attention to history anymore.

+1 on this

[Spots]

History is written by the winner. When the ATF either kills or gags everyone involved how can anyone know the truth? Sadly history is repeating itself in Waco with the biker shootings. Everything is smoke and mirrors and half truths.

Sent from behind the anvil

[oldogy]

Ahh, the Ministry of Truth at work.  Orwell was so accurate.

Edited February 29, 2016 by oldogy

[CommsNBombs]

Suspended CS turns to hydrogen cyanide when introduced to fire...

I guess it is really brave to gas innocent women and children and get them burned to death as well as get into shootouts with private citizens...you know, because the government says so.

...what a bunch of pukes

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

[Pete123]

I disagree with the tone of this thread.  The real bad apples in this mix were David Koresh and his leadership team.  The behavior of the Branch Davidian leadership was sick and reprehensible and most likely included crimes against children.

 

The ATF had a warrant to serve.  The agents who were killed serving the warrant died in the line of duty.  I appreciate their duty and acknowledge that they paid the ultimate sacrifice.  I'll also say that I have found the ATF to be completely helpful, even as they serve a president that is very, very anti gun.

 

The FBI started the siege.  Undoubtedly, they made mistakes.  A sad fact of life is that leadership in government seldom accepts responsibility for making mistakes.  As best I can tell, the FBI has made significant changes in response to this situation.

 

I don't like the government.  I don't like paying taxes.  I also recognize that as governments go, ours is better than most.  

 

Their mistakes and lack of accepting responsibility don't change the fact that the ATF went to serve a valid warrant, that the Davidian's didn't like it, and broke out with the guns.  

 

Looking at modern day, we see these thugs killing our police officers and are outraged.  I don't see how the Davidian's are any better.

 

I think we also have to remember that law enforcement is a very, very difficult job.

[Chucktshoes]

I disagree with the tone of this thread. The real bad apples in this mix were David Koresh and his leadership team. The behavior of the Branch Davidian leadership was sick and reprehensible and most likely included crimes against children.

The ATF had a warrant to serve. The agents who were killed serving the warrant died in the line of duty. I appreciate their duty and acknowledge that they paid the ultimate sacrifice. I'll also say that I have found the ATF to be completely helpful, even as they serve a president that is very, very anti gun.

The FBI started the siege. Undoubtedly, they made mistakes. A sad fact of life is that leadership in government seldom accepts responsibility for making mistakes. As best I can tell, the FBI has made significant changes in response to this situation.

I don't like the government. I don't like paying taxes. I also recognize that as governments go, ours is better than most.

Their mistakes and lack of accepting responsibility don't change the fact that the ATF went to serve a valid warrant, that the Davidian's didn't like it, and broke out with the guns.

Looking at modern day, we see these thugs killing our police officers and are outraged. I don't see how the Davidian's are any better.

I think we also have to remember that law enforcement is a very, very difficult job.

82 men, women and children murdered over the suspicion of an unpaid $200 tax stamp for something that shouldn't be against the law in the first place. The Nuremberg defense doesn't hold water. The only honorable thing those four officers ever did in the employ of that organization was done that day when they got themselves killed. I imagine I am already skating on very thin ice at the moment with my comments so I think it is best if I stop now.

[DWARREN123]

Too many folks did too many wrong things there!

[ou812]

 The only honorable thing those four officers ever did in the employ of that organization was done that day when they got themselves killed. 

 

That is really screwed up!!!!  I feel sorry for the 82 women and children...the man who was at the center of the warrant was a self proclaimed god,,,,and who wasn't acting very God like.  How many times on this forum has it been stated when it comes to some one getting killed or shot when not complying to law officers... it is always stated if they had complied with the law enforcement order they would have not been harmed....so why is it different in this case????  A judge signed the warrant ....if they would have complied with the warrant no one would have been harmed!!! Their day in court would have came and no one would have got harmed   Were the officers suppose to walk way????   Many things when wrong but to write the above is simply wrong!!!!

[TNWNGR]

82 men, women and children murdered over the suspicion of an unpaid $200 tax stamp for something that shouldn't be against the law in the first place. The Nuremberg defense doesn't hold water. The only honorable thing those four officers ever did in the employ of that organization was done that day when they got themselves killed. I imagine I am already skating on very thin ice at the moment with my comments so I think it is best if I stop now.

 

You are free to believe whatever you want to believe and voice it howsoever you want...for the most part. And for the most part I pretty much enjoy reading your posts. After reading this bile I've changed my mind...I think what you said was and is reprehensible.  

[CommsNBombs]

Koresh was a sociopath, sure, but what happened to those ATF guys and to the women and kids was the GOVERNMENTS fault. Koresh isnt the bad guy here.

They had an opportunity to detain Koresh in town prior to the invasion and failed to do so

The allegations of child abuse and incest were UNFOUNDED, the main witness/snitch was the only confirmed rapist who was used by the - you guessed it - the govt as the impetus behind the whole investigation.

So because they THOUGHT someone MIGHT have a NFA violation and some RAPIST told them that he MIGHT be raping people himself they wrongfully invaded private property full of guys who said they defend themselves, got killed (shocker) and then the FBI decided itd be a good idea to shoot CS gas into a burning building.

I PROMISE you that the most basic CBRN handler, explosives handler or anyone who employs CS (2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile) which is a CYANOCARBON ffs knows it will turn into hydrogren cyandie as the carbon bonds are burnt away

The fire didnt kill those people highly concentrated cyanide gas did - which is not a peaceful death - cyanide prevents your mitochondria from processing oxygen - you breath but never get any breath as your blood turns toxic from the lack of oxygenation and your heart finally bursts...

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk Edited February 29, 2016 by CommsNBombs

[Caster]

Since when has being a sociopath or a nut case been a crime in this country?

If Koresh was still here, I wouldn't whizz on his head if his hair was in fire but I have no respect for anyone who just blindly followed orders and moved in to kill them. I would say the agents got what they were asking for.
I feel they were making a power statement by trying to make an example out of the Branch Dividians. It failed miserably and people needlessly died for it. Screw the ATF agents involved and any and all of the cowards involved,in the pisspoor decision making of that day.

Agree or disagree all you like, next it could be your family stomped on. It could be your church or your group gathering. Never say it couldn't never be you.


Ohh yeah, This thread reminds me.
Rest in peace Vikki & Sam Weaver
Burn in hell Lon Horiuchi.

Edited February 29, 2016 by Caster

[Omega]

Yea, too much propaganda out there for me to land on one side or another.  While I feel that those in charge need to held accountable for raiding or having some places raided erroneously; those that break the law should not get a free pass to kill those trying to serve a warrant.

 

There is a big difference between getting the address wrong on a warrant and actually trying to serve one on an actual law breaker.  You may not like said law, but if you knowingly break it you need to accept the consequences.  

[btq96r]

Yea, too much propaganda out there for me to land on one side or another.

 

Word.  The dust cloud obscuring the truth on this one may never dissipate.

[bigun]

I was given the chance to tour this area several years ago. Our tour guide was a Texas federal judge who was very well versed in this. When the feds showed up to serve the warrant they first went to the local sheriff to inform him of this. He told them if they wanted Koresh he would just call him and have him come in as he and David played domenos fairly often. The feds told him not to bother they would handle it and the rest is history. Also within days of the end the whole place was bulldozed, buried and a chain link fence was installed around the whole place.

[runco]

And I felt bad a few months back for ousting Hickok45's name.  That's childs play, compared to the comments in this thread.

[nightrunner]

And I felt bad a few months back for ousting Hickok45's name. That's childs play, compared to the comments in this thread.

Well, to be fair, this is a very polarizing topic. I won't say how I feel on it, I don't want to get banned.

[FUJIMO]

I was given the chance to tour this area several years ago. Our tour guide was a Texas federal judge who was very well versed in this. When the feds showed up to serve the warrant they first went to the local sheriff to inform him of this. He told them if they wanted Koresh he would just call him and have him come in as he and David played domenos fairly often. The feds told him not to bother they would handle it and the rest is history. Also within days of the end the whole place was bulldozed, buried and a chain link fence was installed around the whole place.

 

Hmm, that part sounds familiar :mad:

[Dolomite_supafly]

Also within days of the end the whole place was bulldozed, buried and a chain link fence was installed around the whole place.

That is the hallmark of a cover up. Look at any place where our government is suspected of wringdoing and they put tons of resources into removing any evidence of that wrongdoing.

If someone comes for me because of something I KNOW I did not do. And they can take away everything, including my life, I have a duty as a citizen to resist. And the amount of resistance is directly proportional to the amount of force they are using to effect that illegal arrest. There is now a state in this union that makes resisting wrongful arrests legal and I completely agree with it. And the reason I agree is because we have all seen organizations pick a certain narrative then find, fabricate or omit evidence to support it. Rarely is criminal investigation done with the intent of finding out the truth. It is most often done to achieve a certain end result which is the conviction of THEIR chosen criminal.

If later it was found they wrongfully resisted, and broke laws, then they should be held accountable for resisting and any other crimes but if if is found they were wrongfully accused and wrongfully arrested then anything they did at the moment of the attempted arrest, providing it did not hurt innocents, should be fair game.

And this is not to say ALL officers are bad because the overwhelming majority are not. They are doing a job that most would not want to do, for less pay than most of us would require and they are doing the best they can. But all it takes is one bad officer to get the good officers to unknowingly become a part of it. And then the "us versus them" mentality kicks in. I think that is what frustrates so many people. We have all seen bad officers do bad things then not be held accountable for their wrongful actions. And the reason why is if they are held accountable by their jurisdiction that implies wrongdoing and that could result in a financial judgement. So jurisdictions will spend a lot of time and money defending bad officers even if the organization knows the officer was in the wrong. It would go a long way to heal the image of LE if jurisdictions would say that the officer was in the wrong and that their organization will not be defending the officer.

[DaveTN]

It would go a long way to heal the image of LE if jurisdictions would say that the officer was in the wrong and that their organization will not be defending the officer.

It’s done every day; cops are arrested every day. The problem is that the radicals don’t agree with the laws the Officers are enforcing; and that will not change.

I support our Police Officers in the job they do. They don’t make laws; they enforce them. I have been a Police Officer as I know you have to. I have the upmost respect for them although I wouldn’t want my kids or Grandkids doing the job. You get tired of fighting both sides; that’s why many good people don’t stay.

The FBI should be commended on how they just handled the situation that everyone thought would be the next Waco or Ruby Ridge. Only one person died and he basically committed suicide. What a bunch of clowns. Now instead of getting something done they will all go to prison. Which is exactly where they belong because they threatened innocent people with deadly force; that is never okay.

[Dolomite_supafly]

And on the other end of the spectrum I wish people who file false complaints against police should be held accountable too. All too often they throw a hail marry complaint hoping to get a $10 parking ticket thrown out and they do it without thinking about the ramifications to the officer.

And when the civilian looses they think no big deal but the officer is left with a permanent record of the complaint. And of it is an active officer, that is having a lot of contact, they will be getting more complaints. And a bunch of complaints, founded or unfounded, will have a negative impact on their career.

I would have zero problems with anyone who filed a false complaint being charged criminally and if found guilty should be required to pay whatever amount it takes to restore the officer's name. If they can't afford that then require them to go to jail until the officer feels justice has been served. A day, a month or years. After all the civilian making the false complaint is attempting to take away everything the officer has worked for so any attempt to do that should be believed very seriously.

I guess it just boils down to one thing, honesty. Regardless of where you stand on the issue if someone is being dishonest they should pay a price for that. And how dishonest should determine how severe the punishment.

I got tired of being on the receiving end of false complaints and seeing those that knowingly filed false complaints laugh about it.

[Omega]

And on the other end of the spectrum I wish people who file false complaints against police should be held accountable too. All too often they throw a hail marry complaint hoping to get a $10 parking ticket thrown out and they do it without thinking about the ramifications to the officer.

And when the civilian looses they think no big deal but the officer is left with a permanent record of the complaint. And of it is an active officer, that is having a lot of contact, they will be getting more complaints. And a bunch of complaints, founded or unfounded, will have a negative impact on their career.

I would have zero problems with anyone who filed a false complaint being charged criminally and if found guilty should be required to pay whatever amount it takes to restore the officer's name. If they can't afford that then require them to go to jail until the officer feels justice has been served. A day, a month or years. After all the civilian making the false complaint is attempting to take away everything the officer has worked for so any attempt to do that should be believed very seriously.

I guess it just boils down to one thing, honesty. Regardless of where you stand on the issue if someone is being dishonest they should pay a price for that. And how dishonest should determine how severe the punishment.

I got tired of being on the receiving end of false complaints and seeing those that knowingly filed false complaints laugh about it.

While it is good in theory, not good in practice.  Unless there is footage, or enough witnesses it boils down to a he said/she said situation and the police officer is usually given more credence.  Unless there is very good evidence of malicious accusation I think its better to have any unfounded complaints expunged after a certain amount of time.  That way, the officer is put on notice, just in case, and his record gets cleared if no other like situations arise.  The same can be done for the accuser, if that individual has a record of filing complaints it can be used to file charges if the need arises.