Battle rages over Florida law limiting doctors’ gun speech

[The Legion]

http://wreg.com/2016/02/27/battle-rages-over-florida-law-limiting-doctors-gun-speech/

 

MIAMI — As a pediatrician, Dr. Judith Schaechter can ask parents of her patients all sorts of questions regarding their safety and well-being: what the child eats, whether there’s a backyard pool and whether the child gets enough sleep.

Yet the question of whether there is a gun in the home is generally off limits. A Florida law bans routine gun questions even though eight children or teenagers are killed every day in the U.S. with guns, according the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

Doctors such as Schaechter believe a discussion about guns is essential to child safety.

“A doctor has to be able to ask,” said Schaechter, who is chair of the Department of Pediatrics at the University of Miami Miller School of Medicine. “We do this for so many issues. This is but one. Yet it is an extremely important one, for when we don’t discuss prevention, the results can be lethal.”

Schaechter is among thousands of physicians, medical organizations and other groups such as the American Civil Liberties Union that challenged the law, formally called the Firearm Owners Privacy Act, in a lawsuit known popularly as “Docs vs. Glocks.” The law, passed in 2011 amid strong support from the National Rifle Association, is the only one of its kind in the nation, although similar laws have been considered in 12 other states, according to the American Academy of Pediatrics.

The legal battle, which has raged since the law’s inception, is a clash between the First Amendment’s guarantee of free speech and the Second Amendment’s right to keep and bear arms, amid a national discussion about the role and availability of weapons across the U.S.

The lawsuit is now pending before the Atlanta-based 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals following conflicting earlier rulings on its constitutionality — and the case could wind up in the U.S. Supreme Court.

Supporters in the Republican-controlled Florida Legislature and the NRA say the law became necessary when, in their view, doctors began overstepping their bounds in the examination room by pushing an anti-Second Amendment, anti-gun political agenda. The NRA cites several examples of doctors telling patients they’d have to find a new physician if they refused to answer questions about gun ownership or telling parents they should get rid of any guns in the home.

The law, supporters point out, permits doctors under a “good faith” provision to ask about firearms if the questions are deemed “relevant to the patient’s medical care or safety” or the safety of other people.

“These provisions target discrimination and harassment, not speech, and they do nothing to impair doctor-patient discussions of firearm safety,” NRA attorney Charles Cooper said in court papers. “Even if viewed as a speech regulation, the (law) is a reasonable regulation of speech incidental to the practice of medicine.”

The law also has some teeth: doctors who violate the law could face professional discipline, such as a fine, or even lose their medical licenses. The state Department of Health would investigate any complaints, although the law has never been enforced because it was blocked in 2012 by a Miami judge’s decision that found it an unconstitutional violation of free speech rights.

Since that decision by U.S. District Judge Marcia Cooke, the law has been entangled in an unusual web of appeals brought by Florida Attorney General Pam Bondi, a Republican.

The same panel of three 11th Circuit appeals judges has overruled Cooke on identical 2-1 votes — but in three separate opinions, each replacing the one before. Most recently, in December, the panel found that any free speech concerns were outweighed by Florida’s interest in preventing doctors from using their so-called “power disparity” over patients to chill exercise of their Second Amendment rights.

In other words, the three-judge panel found that doctors had a First Amendment right to talk to patients about guns but couldn’t use it most of the time, said attorney Doug Hallward-Driemeier, who represents the physicians and their allies.

The law, he said, “singles out doctors’ speech about guns for restriction because the government disagrees with their message. That is precisely what the First Amendment protects us against.”

After that December opinion, the full 11th Circuit Court of Appeals stepped in to take up the case, tossing out the decisions by its own three-judge panel. The court’s 11 judges in coming months will likely hold oral arguments, followed by a decision that could be appealed again to the U.S. Supreme Court, Hallward-Driemeier said.

Schaechter, the pediatrician, said she views concerns about Second Amendment violations as misguided. With a nation awash in guns — the nonpartisan Congressional Research Service pegged the number at 310 million guns in 2009 — it’s simple common sense for a doctor to question patients about them, she said.

“This isn’t about the Second Amendment. It’s about speaking up to save lives, and that’s my right and it’s my patients’ right to hear what I have to say,” she said. “I trust if they don’t want to answer my questions, they will tell me. So far, none of them have done so.”

[Ugly]

Yeah, because a dr asking about guns is gonna save lives. Demented libtards!

[101]

All injury deaths

• Number of deaths: 192,945
• Deaths per 100,000 population: 60.2

All poisoning deaths

• Number of deaths: 48,545
• Deaths per 100,000 population: 15.4

Motor vehicle traffic deaths

• Number of deaths: 33,804
• Deaths per 100,000 population: 10.7

All firearm deaths

• Number of deaths: 33,636
• Deaths per 100,000 population: 10.6

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/injury.htm

 

Copied straight from the CDC website.  So, why are doctors not more concerned about poisoning injuries or deaths?  They don't worry about bleach and toilet bowl cleaner anymore.  Remember the Mr. Yuck stickers school use to hand out?

 

When's the last time you saw a commercial about poisoning deaths? Even though it beats gun deaths every single year.

Edited February 28, 2016 by 101

[Randall53]

Maybe we should ask our children's Doctors if they are into child porn. It's for my child's own safety of course. I sure don't want my child's doctor to be a pervert and be putting my child at risk. 

[jpx2rk]

I seriously doubt there is a gun safety course on any med school's course curriculum, but I've been wrong before.  

[DaveTN]

My Doctor, Attorney, and Minister are free to ask me whatever they like. I am free to answer however I like. I see no problem.

The problem comes into play with what is done with that information. If your Doctor asks if you or anyone in your home smokes; your insurance company can get that info and charge you higher rates. Smoking is not a constitutional right; gun ownership is. Doctors are certainly free to not take you as a patient if you own guns (or smoke, or do anything else they have a problem with). The courts will need to answer the question about whether or not insurance companies can charge you higher rates if you exercise you Constitutional Right of gun ownership.

[vbob]

My Doctor, Attorney, and Minister are free to ask me whatever they like. I am free to answer however I like. I see no problem.

The problem comes into play with what is done with that information. If your Doctor asks if you or anyone in your home smokes; your insurance company can get that info and charge you higher rates. Smoking is not a constitutional right; gun ownership is. Doctors are certainly free to not take you as a patient if you own guns (or smoke, or do anything else they have a problem with). The courts will need to answer the question about whether or not insurance companies can charge you higher rates if you exercise you Constitutional Right of gun ownership.

 

your logic on this is good but the problem occurs when they have a legal right to ask and then bully their patient into answering. this could happen for any number of reasons, they my doc i should listen, im on gov assistance i have to answer, im a vet they ask i answer, or just simply i answered without registering what the question was.

[DaveTN]

your logic on this is good but the problem occurs when they have a legal right to ask and then bully their patient into answering. this could happen for any number of reasons, they my doc i should listen, im on gov assistance i have to answer, im a vet they ask i answer, or just simply i answered without registering what the question was.

I’m not sure what you are saying. Have you had a Doctor “bully” you into answering questions about guns?

[Randall53]

This country made it 240 years without having to answer that kind of question from Doctors and gun ownership has nothing to do with the mess we're in now as a country. I feel it's none of their damn business for the next 240 years just like it's been for the past 240 years. Like post #3 by 101 shows more deaths by poison than firearms, yet there's never any talk about locking up your drano stash, registering it, or passing bills that make you accountable for poor storage of poisons in your home if a child or someone drinks it and dies.  It's all about firearms and the desire of the Dems to take 'em up.

 

They need to spend this time and money on the pandemic drug problem in this country that's killing our young people by overdose and getting the drug dealers in prison.

 

https://www.drugabuse.gov/related-topics/trends-statistics/overdose-death-rates

Edited February 28, 2016 by Randall53

[gjohnsoniv]

This country made it 240 years without having to answer that kind of question from Doctors and gun ownership has nothing to do with the mess we're in now as a country. I feel it's none of their damn business for the next 240 years just like it's been for the past 240 years. Like post #3 by 101 shows more deaths by poison than firearms, yet there's never any talk about locking up your drano stash, registering it, or passing bills that make you accountable for poor storage of poisons in your home if a child or someone drinks it and dies. It's all about firearms and the desire of the .GOV to take 'em up.

FTFY

[Randall53]

FTFY

It didn't need fix'n.  You don't think there's a sever drug problem in the USA?  It's as much of a poison as the drano. look at the link. close to 30,000 deaths by OD.

Edited February 28, 2016 by Randall53

[bersaguy]

My doctor has never had to ask if there are firearms in my home because when I took my coat off in her examining room to get my BP taken she saw mine in my belt holster. She did ask what caliber I was packing and I said 380. She opened up her doctors smock and said mine is 380 also and smiled and went on with the exam. Everyone working in her office has a gun on them except the very elderly lady at the front desk. She paid to have all of her people go through a gun safety course and carry course and she paid 50% of the cost of each persons firearm they chose to carry.................... :up:  :up: 

[Jonnin]

Its right there in the piece.  "examples of doctors telling patients they’d have to find a new physician if they refused to answer questions about gun ownership or telling parents they should get rid of any guns in the home."

 

The solution is simple, as it always is.

 

1) let the Dr ask.

2) The NRA will provide a pamphlet the Dr will provide to the patient on gun safety.  

3) if the Dr chooses to ask, they can never drop the patient for any reason.

4) if the Dr chooses to ask, they MUST provide #2, trusting that the NRA are the best qualified to provide safety tips. 

5) the Dr may add their own thoughts in writing after providing credentials to show they are experts on the topic, evaluated by an NRA expert.  Their remarks can be submitted back to the NRA by the patient if desired to force a re-evaluation of the Dr's status.

6) The Dr may add their own remarks after stating clearly (pre-written statement)  they are NOT experts if they are not approved via #5.  

 

Simple.

Edited February 28, 2016 by Jonnin

[monkeylizard]

It didn't need fix'n.  You don't think there's a sever drug problem in the USA?  It's as much of a poison as the drano. look at the link. close to 30,000 deaths by OD.

 

The "fix" was changing "the desire of the Dems to take 'em up." to "the desire of the .GOV to take 'em up." It wasn't about the drug issue.

 

If you think there aren't people in Washington with an ( R ) next to their name plus a crap ton of un-elected bureaucrats with neither a ( D ) or an ( R ) who would love a disarmed populace, then look closer.

[Randall53]

The "fix" was changing "the desire of the Dems to take 'em up." to "the desire of the .GOV to take 'em up." It wasn't about the drug issue.

 

If you think there aren't people in Washington with an ( R ) next to their name plus a crap ton of un-elected bureaucrats with neither a ( D ) or an ( R ) who would love a disarmed populace, then look closer.

You are right about some R's, especially in the Northeast. The Dems are the loudest squeaky wheel by by many decibels though and are leading the fight by a mile.  BUT he did remove all references to the drug issue in the post.

Edited March 27, 2016 by Randall53

[monkeylizard]

As to the topic at hand, it's a legitimate topic for a pediatrician, but no more so than general safety in the home. It could easily be handled with statements rather than questions. That gets the information to the parents and it remains none of the Dr's business.

 

Examples:

• If you have chemicals in your home, like bleach, detergents, bug spray, or a jug of battery acid, please keep it locked up and inaccessible to your child. They don't understand that it can hurt or kill them.
• Please be sure to always use a child safety seat in the car. Here's a pamphlet with contact information for where you can get one at no charge if you can't afford one. Look for one with (whatever seal of approval is the one to go by these days).
• If you have firearms in the home, please keep them locked away from your child. Hiding it on the top shelf doesn't cut it. Kids WILL find everything in your home. Here's a pamphlet from the NRA with some suggested safety guidelines.
• While we're on firearms, here's another pamphlet from the NRA's Eddie the Eagle program with a child-centric approach to gun safety. even if you don't have a firearm, you still need to teach your child the information in here because you never know what they might find away from your home.
• Be sure to check the batteries in your smoke alarms. If you don't have smoke alarms, please get some. The local fire department usually has them for free for people in the community who can't afford them.
• etc.

Edited February 29, 2016 by monkeylizard

[monkeylizard]

The Dems are the loudest squeaky wheel by by many decibels though and are leading the fight by a mile.

 

No doubt, but you replied to gjohnsoniv's "FIFY" post as if he was editing your post to remove your comment amount pandemic drug abuse.

[Jonnin]

on the topic of poisons ...  its the stuff that smells and tastes OK that gets you.  No one is going to drink bleach, it stinks and it tastes super bad.   Now the scented stuff, maybe, but the basic variety, not so much.    Bug spray etc smells sweet and might even taste ok, I dunno as I haven't tried it.   But that's what you have to watch out for.  

[A.J. Holst]

on the topic of poisons ... its the stuff that smells and tastes OK that gets you. No one is going to drink bleach, it stinks and it tastes super bad. Now the scented stuff, maybe, but the basic variety, not so much. Bug spray etc smells sweet and might even taste ok, I dunno as I haven't tried it. But that's what you have to watch out for.

Once upon a time I had a guy working for me who came from the "troubled yoot industry" He claimed some of his kids drank diluted bleach to cheat urinalysis drug testing...hell kids are licking toads and snorting bath salts to get high...

[btq96r]

The courts will need to answer the question about whether or not insurance companies can charge you higher rates if you exercise you Constitutional Right of gun ownership.

 

I think if it makes it to the courts, they'll rule that insurance companies can justify it because just having the gun creates the additional conditions where an accident could happen, and they'd be paying for the medical treatment.  I think they would have to show some kind of risk calculation matrix or something else if pressed to justify their costs in court, but I don't think they would be denied from doing it outright.

[vbob]

I’m not sure what you are saying. Have you had a Doctor “bully” you into answering questions about guns?

no i have not. people are used to just answering questions from others with authority. Most on here will hesitate or refuse to answer, which is an answer in itself and any information recorded now will always be out there.  Computers dont erase unless you do some major work and anyone could access that info, even when they are not supposed to legally. like you said the insurance company gets it and now will the government cause they are a part of the insurance protection racket?

[analog_kidd]

I recently had to go to a specialist for a "procedure" (I turned 50, you older guys know what I'm talking about). I had to fill out a form with all kinds of stupid questions. While there weren't any gun related questions, the questions were not relevant at all to the procedure I was having done. If it wasn't a question that helped them with billing (name, address, insurance, etc.) or my medical history, I left it blank. I was ready to put up a fight when I delivered it, but they never even gave it a second look.

 

Somewhat off-topic, but what I really want is an option to opt out of having all my medical info stored up in the Government cloud. The government does not pay for my insurance, nor any of my healthcare. It's none of their damned business what my blood pressure is, or what prescriptions I am on. I always worry that eventually they will say "Anyone taking prescription XYZ should not be allowed to own guns". And if they know who owns guns thanks to doctor's questionnaires, they can say "Sorry, your spouse is taking XYZ, you can't have guns in your house at all".

[Just2Honor]

If the doctor councels me on gun safety and something happens, can I sue the doctor for malpractice?

[Randall53]

No doubt, but you replied to gjohnsoniv's "FIFY" post as if he was editing your post to remove your comment amount pandemic drug abuse.

Well, he DID remove it.

[Jonnin]

Once upon a time I had a guy working for me who came from the "troubled yoot industry" He claimed some of his kids drank diluted bleach to cheat urinalysis drug testing...hell kids are licking toads and snorting bath salts to get high...

 

I was speaking of children.  If they are old enough to get high off something, they are now an adult in my eyes.   I have a harsh view on that .. they stop being kids when they start to murder, rape, dope, assault and in some cases stealing (circumstantial, not talking about grabby a toy from another infant here but intentional theft like beating someone up and taking their lunch money).   Small children are not going to drink very much bleach.