Bill could make parents responsible for kids finding guns

[Obiwan]

My grand daughter (12) has her own purpose built .25X.223 AR, and a 20 gauge Model 1100. ....

 

Well, no need to read further. You're already guilty of a class A misdemeanor! Turn yourself in, sir.     :eek:

[DaveTN]

So, let's get this straight; because I leave a gun in my nightstand (loaded otherwise it's useless) and there happens to be a 13 or under kid in the house, and said child gets possession but nothing happens I can be charged?

First off, you can be charged for anything. From the first responding Officer, to the investigators, to the DA; decisions are being made that impact your future. Every case has its own set circumstances, and opinions of those involved. Intent, state of mind, intent of the law, and letter of the law, and how LE got involved are all factors.

If those involved feel the circumstances under which the child got the gun were because you acted recklessly; yes you can be charged.

In our discussions here we are generally limited to news reports and rarely have the facts known to the responding Officers and the DA. Cops aren’t big on releasing information on cases they are investigating.

 

Lean a shotgun up against a tree, and get your grandson/daughter to fetch it...get charged.

“Reckless” is an element of this offense. If it’s not illegal for the child to possess the gun in your presence; it’s not reckless. It could be reckless if the gun was left in an unsafe state and discharged when the kid handled it.
 

Kid breaks in, gets your gun, you get charged. Etc. Etc. Etc.

A lawyer (Criminal Prosecutor) would have to answer that, but my guess would be if the kid was committing a felony, and not authorized to be there; that would be a factor that would result in charges not being filed. It wouldn’t be reckless if you had no reason to believe a kid would be in your house.

I believe that I have zero responsibility to secure or disable a firearm that is out of sight in my secured, locked vehicle (in this state). However if two juveniles burglarize my car and one shoots and kills the other while playing with the gun they stole; there will be those that would be calling for my head on a stick.
 

Yea, sounds like it's for the kids....

It is. We all tend to think most parents are like us and are concerned about their kids. As a former Police Officer I can assure you many are not. It was frustrating for us because it is nearly impossible to help kids that in homes with loser parents that don’t care about them; until something tragic happens.

It’s a law that has come about from kids getting guns and shooting themselves or others because of the reckless acts of gun owners around them. They are often called “terrible accidents”. It is terrible, but is rarely an accident that was not preventable had the gun owner exercised due diligence. Edited February 27, 2016 by DaveTN

[Dane]

How about a bill that does something useful like directing schools to teach gun safety for those under 13.
I think it would be better than the current curriculum that teaches about sex, STDs, gays, and transgender.

[DaveTN]

How about a bill that does something useful like directing schools to teach gun safety for those under 13.
I think it would be better than the current curriculum that teaches about sex, STDs, gays, and transgender.

I wouldn’t want a school teaching my kids gun safety any more than I would want them teaching them about gays or Muslims.

[Worriedman]

Dave you all about disliking the mandatory Hunter Safety Course, do you think it is probably really bad for kids too?

[DaveTN]

Dave you all about disliking the mandatory Hunter Safety Course, do you think it is probably really bad for kids too?

I would assume a kid going to a hunter safety class has a parent involved. I would also assume a hunter safety course is taught by a certified NRA instructor. I have no problem with that.

I would assume a school would use whatever teacher wants the job. Who knows what they would teach them?

It’s the same as teachers teaching kids that the cops have to have a warrant to search their car. Kids deserve better information. If you are going to teach something like that you better know what you are talking about; being wrong can cause the kid a lot of problems.

[bersaguy]

I heard about these new laws in news last evening and a lot of it during the discussions in the news was based around a particular case in question as the prime example that makes these laws needed. This particular case was mentioned several times by the news network during the report.

 

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=www.cnn.com%2F2015%2F11%2F25%2Fus%2Ftennessee-girl-killed-over-puppy%2F

Edited February 27, 2016 by bersaguy

[TripleDigitRide]

That is a good example of a situation where the parents should be charged. Like many similar cases, the parents were never charged. Why?

Were the existing laws that supposedly cover this type of thing ignored, or are new laws needed to cover this type of situation? Edited February 27, 2016 by TripleDigitRide

[Omega]

That is a good example of a situation where the parents should be charged. Like many similar cases, the parents were never charged. Why?

Were the existing laws that supposedly cover this type of thing ignored, or are new laws needed to cover this type of situation?

I don't know if I agree with that, the 11 year old took the shotgun and either shot the girl or gave it to another kid who did.  An 11 year old should know better, but what if he took a hammer and beat her over the head, or stabbed her?  Does the meer fact that it was a firearm change things?  Or should we hold those who do these acts accountable?

[bersaguy]

The 11year old was charged with Murder and found guilty and sentenced to 8 years in prison ( Juvenile Facility) till age 19.  He will have a felony charge on his record for his entire life. I have mixed feelings about all of this. I do realized that the Boy was old enough to know what he was doing when he went and got the gun. It is not exactly clear if he handed the gun to a friend or if he was the actual shooter but he was the one that went in the closet and got the gun. Thing about all of this is none of it will bring back the little 8 year old girl. From all the  different stories I read on line about this case, is there was bad blood between the 2 children for sometime and her refusal to let the boy pet a puppy seems to be what sparked the whole thing. 

 

Children will have these kinds of issues as long as children exist. We can all go back in our childhood memories and remember times we got mad at someone at that age. Guns were much more readily available back then then they are today but we didn't go get a gun and shoot them. Normally a few hours or days later we were back friends again of at least not holding a grudge about it.

 

I have no clue where the answer lays when it comes to children these days and have no intentions of offering any suggestions on how to fix what children do these days. I don't think this law they are proposing will fix anything in regards to children. I do feel that at some point parents must realize that children do kill other children and it is up to adults to look for ways to fix this problem but again laws are not going to do it. This law like someone mentioned in an earlier post, is a reaction law that will only happen after a child has been killed by another. It's like a car insurance policy. They don't make any one a better driver but just pay up after the fact. Regardless of having the most expensive insurance on the market or the cheapest 100's of 1000's of folks die every year in car wrecks.

 

There has been a few good ideas posted about LGS's offering a Gun Lock Box but like in the case above a gun lock box would not have worked. A trigger lock might have worked maybe???? but then another person raised a very good point about kids today being smart enough to figure out ways around lock boxes and locked doors if they want in bad enough.

 

I guess I have gone on long enough so off my soap box now............ :2cents: :cool:

[DaveTN]

The 11year old was charged with Murder and found guilty and sentenced to 8 years in prison ( Juvenile Facility) till age 19.  He will have a felony charge on his record for his entire life.

Why? Was the case transferred to adult court? Juvenile cases are adjudications; not convictions.

[bersaguy]

Why? Was the case transferred to adult court? Juvenile cases are adjudications; not convictions.

I have no idea but here was another article about it.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/boy-kills-girl-over-puppy_us_56b710b1e4b01d80b2469d17

[Omega]

According to the court documents, posted online by local media, Tiller had been trained in firearm safety and had gone hunting with his grandfather and father.
After being blocked from the puppies, Tiller returned with the shotgun and the victim laughed at him, doubting the firearms were real, the documents said.
"Tiller then made certain the gun was loaded, cocked the hammer of the gun, and shot the victim just above the heart," the documents said.

So if this is true, seems the only one at fault is the 11 year old; knew exactly what he was doing.  Parents don't seem to be responsible, the shotgun was just coincidental to the incident.

[bersaguy]

So if this is true, seems the only one at fault is the 11 year old; knew exactly what he was doing.  Parents don't seem to be responsible, the shotgun was just coincidental to the incident.

if that is true there had to be eye witnesses for the details to be so air tight and exact. It would have cause to believe the parents were not at fault if that are the true facts.

[Obiwan]

So if this is true, seems the only one at fault is the 11 year old; knew exactly what he was doing.  Parents don't seem to be responsible, the shotgun was just coincidental to the incident.

 

Apparently. From the CNN article:

 

"The little boy said he wanted to pet the puppies and they said no and kind of laughed and giggled a little bit. That's when he pointed a BB gun at them," neighbor Wayne Joslin told CNN in October.

"He'd misfired or something. Then he threw it down and that's when he went and got the shotgun," Joslin said.

 

Sounds to me like he knew full well what was going to happen. He tried the BB gun. It failed. So he got the shotgun. I doubt the story of him handing it to his buddy that took the fatal shot.

Edited February 28, 2016 by Obiwan

[Obiwan]

 but then another person raised a very good point about kids today being smart enough to figure out ways around lock boxes and locked doors if they want in bad enough.

 

 

Absolutely. I hope gun owning parents will watch this video, and read this article.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erGOJxQIf5c

 

 

But that doesn't apply to all lock-boxes, just the bad ones. You just have to do careful research to avoid the bad ones.

Edited February 28, 2016 by Obiwan

[10-Ring]

This shouldn't have to be a law.  This is common sense.  But we have a bunch of idiots out there that have enough trouble tying their own shoes, therefore there has to be a law to make it illegal for them to be negligent.  This is about as close as I've ever seen to that term "common sense gun law" but it's still pointless.  It's not going to make anyone stop and think "Hey better keep my gun locked up so I don't catch a charge."  So the kid gets the gun the parent gets charged and then what? 

[DaveTN]

This shouldn't have to be a law.  This is common sense.  But we have a bunch of idiots out there that have enough trouble tying their own shoes, therefore there has to be a law to make it illegal for them to be negligent.  This is about as close as I've ever seen to that term "common sense gun law" but it's still pointless.  It's not going to make anyone stop and think "Hey better keep my gun locked up so I don't catch a charge."  So the kid gets the gun the parent gets charged and then what?

Btq96r posted the text of the law. Because the law uses the words recklessly, plain view and readily accessible, just getting the gun is not enough for them to be convicted. In the story in play right now the kid apparently got the gun out of the closet, loaded it and shot the girl; that wouldn’t meet the requirements of this law for the parents to be convicted.

This law just makes it easier to charge irresponsible gun owners. It’s an attempt to cause awareness and maybe get more people to comply.

[NextExit]

This shouldn't have to be a law.  This is common sense.

And when this law doesn't work then hello smart gun. :shake:

All this talk of protecting the children makes me think I should padlock the fridge, and hide the keys to the mower and cars. :stare:

[bersaguy]

Absolutely. I hope gun owning parents will watch this video, and read this article.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erGOJxQIf5c

 

 

But that doesn't apply to all lock-boxes, just the bad ones. You just have to do careful research to avoid the bad ones.

 

Well, as to the kids lifting and dropping the lock boxes to open them, they had to be taught that. It just does not happen that way in my opinion. And the kid with that fine slide tool he used. I'm willing to bet he was also taught how to do it. I have 3 lock boxes through out my house and I promise you no child will open them. After each purchase I did my own modifications to them that would prevent that. I also  pinned my boxes down to a very stable heavy base so they could not be picked up by any bad guys and toted off to open at a later date. If your going to invest the money in the boxes you also have to invest the time to make sure the boxes work like they should................jmho

[Randall53]

Well, as to the kids lifting and dropping the lock boxes to open them, they had to be taught that. It just does not happen that way in my opinion. And the kid with that fine slide tool he used. I'm willing to bet he was also taught how to do it. I have 3 lock boxes through out my house and I promise you no child will open them. After each purchase I did my own modifications to them that would prevent that. I also  pinned my boxes down to a very stable heavy base so they could not be picked up by any bad guys and toted off to open at a later date. If your going to invest the money in the boxes you also have to invest the time to make sure the boxes work like they should................jmho

I agree. Using a lockbox without common sense is useless.

[Worriedman]

I would assume a kid going to a hunter safety class has a parent involved. I would also assume a hunter safety course is taught by a certified NRA instructor. I have no problem with that.

I would assume a school would use whatever teacher wants the job. Who knows what they would teach them?

It’s the same as teachers teaching kids that the cops have to have a warrant to search their car. Kids deserve better information. If you are going to teach something like that you better know what you are talking about; being wrong can cause the kid a lot of problems.

The bill we plan to run requires NRA or equivalent certified instructors to teach the material.  Schools can't afford the additional expense unless funded by the state.  I was in education for a while, and saw the results of what Mom and Dad are teaching the average student, they (students) need this curriculum.

By the 5th grade I promise children have been exposed to a loaded gun, we had better start teaching them as a society at least which end of the things the bullet comes out of.  My 3 year old grand son knows if he finds a real gun to leave it alone and find an adult, will not be at my house that he does, but he damn well might somewhere else, I teach him the facts just in case.  Not everybody thinks it is as important as do I.

Rap Music and the idiot box is teaching them something else...

Edited February 28, 2016 by Worriedman

[Obiwan]

Well, as to the kids lifting and dropping the lock boxes to open them, they had to be taught that. It just does not happen that way in my opinion. And the kid with that fine slide tool he used. I'm willing to bet he was also taught how to do it. I have 3 lock boxes through out my house and I promise you no child will open them. After each purchase I did my own modifications to them that would prevent that. I also  pinned my boxes down to a very stable heavy base so they could not be picked up by any bad guys and toted off to open at a later date. If your going to invest the money in the boxes you also have to invest the time to make sure the boxes work like they should................jmho

 

Of course the kids were taught. The video was made to show how badly some lock-boxes are designed, where jiggling/dropping it will defeat the locking mechanism. Or a simple insertion of a tool/straw/whatever will cause the lock to open, bypassing the supper-duper fingerprint scanner, etc. It demonstrates the "so easy a child can do it" quite literally. :)

 

The video was not intended to show how clever kids are. It was intended to show how poorly some lock-boxes are designed and/or built.

 

I also have three lock-boxes, and no kid will get in there. I'm not able to get into two of them (without being really destructive), the other seems to be riggable. The two good ones are are heavy steel with simplex lock. The other is a bit thinner steel, has a digital lock as well as a lame key-lock (4-pin round lock, apparently cut to 1-2-1-1).

 

The point is: There are lock-boxes sold that can be opened by children. In case a child gets a gun out and shots self or siblings, I would assume having that lock-box will at least still count as a defense in the proposed bill.

[btq96r]

My grand daughter (12) has her own purpose built .25X.223 AR, and a 20 gauge Model 1100.  She has been reloading for them and shooting them for 4 years, and is as safe a gun handler as I know.  I keep loaded firearms in my home, they are not "locked" up or trigger locked (those not in the safe).  She knows where they are and how to use them, and is proficient with them.

 

All that and you can't teach her that mum's the word on telling any of it to someone outside the family?

 

 

I agree with you that this isn't going to become law for the reasons you mention, I'm just not opposed to it as it's written.

[Omega]

All that and you can't teach her that mum's the word on telling any of it to someone outside the family?

 

 

I agree with you that this isn't going to become law for the reasons you mention, I'm just not opposed to it as it's written.

Why should he have to keep it secret?  Is this not America?  We are letting these bleeding heart liberals get really out of hand because of how some of these laws are written and used.  Do you really need a coffee cup to say "hot", electrical appliances to say "do not drop in water"?  This law, as written, has too much room for prosecutors to prosecute someone with nothing really to have happened.  Not that there are many sleazy prosecutors, but there are some.  This was supposedly written because of the shotgun case, in my view the parents were not at fault.  If this law was on the books, that family would of been charged.  Even if they were found not guilty, they may of gone bankrupt defending themselves against an unjust law.  As it is I am sure they are going through hell with all this, they don't need more trouble.  Like I said elsewhere, there are already laws on the books that some of these other more blatant cases can be prosecuted under, the real question is why aren't they.