Bill could make parents responsible for kids finding guns

[Worriedman]

All that and you can't teach her that mum's the word on telling any of it to someone outside the family?

 

 

I agree with you that this isn't going to become law for the reasons you mention, I'm just not opposed to it as it's written.

So, the boys get to bragging about their hunting skills, she pulls out a picture of her most recent deer harvest, the doves she took, or the squirrels she took last weekend, and some Greenie teacher hears the conversation and here comes the SWAT team.

Or, the community Doc comes to school and  the authority figures "demand" answers to their questions...know any 12 years olds that would not be intimidated to tell the truth, or do we start them young learning to lie?  I guess as we slip into a "Papers Please" society we should?

We had a female Sargent in the Police Department leave her purse with a backup Glock in it in a grocery cart along with her 4 year old grand daughter who popped off a round at the Dollar Store.  Nothing was done about that, and nothing will be done about a similar instance in the future, as some are just more equal than others.

This is a bad law, put forth by two real Democrats to make the life of gun owners more difficult.  The "problems" are already covered by existing law, as Omega proposed, prosecute those guilty under them.  We have enough Statist laws as it is.

[Worriedman]

I would like someone with more understanding of the law to opine here, but to me the law had a "you understood" (or) at the end of Section 1, (a), (1), else why include the:

(A) Is placed or stored for any period of time in a location in which the firearm is not immediately available to the owner or possessor of the firearm; or
[B] Is temporarily left unattended by the owner or possessor of
the firearm for any period of time; and
(2) Contains ammunition in the clip, magazine, or chamber, or ammunition for the unattended
firearm is in the immediate vicinity of the firearm.

Then gives exceptions of trigger locks and safes.  I have a problem with the "stored in a location" portion, that precludes "being in plain view."  I can just see the argument, "well it was in a drawer, but once you opened it, it was in plain view."

Why not just include the "Contains ammunition in the clip, magazine, or chamber, or ammunition for the unattended
firearm is in the immediate vicinity of the firearm." at the end of the first sentence and be done with it?

 

Say it gets through committees and it gets amended to add an (or) in between the "location that is in plain view and (or) readily accessible", that makes a lot of difference, (I believe it can already be construed as such) and I have no doubt that such a one word add would survive a "its for the children" cry.

TCA 39-17-1320 already deals with recklessly allowing a minor to possess a handgun, simply amend that to say "firearm":

 

 

39-17-1320.  Providing handguns to juveniles -- Penalties.

  (a) It is an offense for a person intentionally, knowingly or recklessly to provide a handgun with or without remuneration to any person that the person providing the handgun knows or has reason to believe is a juvenile in violation of § 39-17-1319.

[b] It is an offense for a parent or guardian intentionally, knowingly or recklessly to provide a handgun to a juvenile or permit a juvenile to possess a handgun, if the parent or guardian knows of a substantial risk that the juvenile will use a handgun to commit a felony.

(c) Unlawfully providing or permitting a juvenile to possess a handgun in violation of subsection (a) is a Class A misdemeanor and in violation of subsection [b] is a Class D felony.

Edited February 29, 2016 by Worriedman

[Omega]

I would like someone with more understanding of the law to opine here, but to me the law had a "you understood" (or) at the end of Section 1, (a), (1), else why include the:

(A) Is placed or stored for any period of time in a location in which the firearm is not immediately available to the owner or possessor of the firearm; or
[B] Is temporarily left unattended by the owner or possessor of
the firearm for any period of time; and
(2) Contains ammunition in the clip, magazine, or chamber, or ammunition for the unattended
firearm is in the immediate vicinity of the firearm.

Then gives exceptions of trigger locks and safes.  I have a problem with the "stored in a location" portion, that precludes "being in plain view."  I can just see the argument, "well it was in a drawer, but once you opened it, it was in plain view."

Why not just include the "Contains ammunition in the clip, magazine, or chamber, or ammunition for the unattended
firearm is in the immediate vicinity of the firearm." at the end of the first sentence and be done with it?

Say it gets through committees and it gets amended to add an (or) in between the "location that is in plain view and (or) readily accessible", that makes a lot of difference, (I believe it can already be construed as such) and I have no doubt that such a one word add would survive a "its for the children" cry.

I don't like either way.  There are many cases where weapons are left unattended and minors have access, such as the case where a 13 yo (I think) used his mothers weapon to defend the home.  While no self respecting officer or prosecutor may want to press charges, I can see the criminal or his family, if he didn't survive the encounter, going after the family due to having such laws on the books.

 

There are already laws in place, lets use those when appropriate.

[btq96r]

Like I said elsewhere, there are already laws on the books that some of these other more blatant cases can be prosecuted under, the real question is why aren't they.

 

What laws cover it?  Show me in the TCA.

 

 

The "problems" are already covered by existing law, as Omega proposed, prosecute those guilty under them.

 

Same as above.  Show me which laws in the TCA can cover the exact same circumstances this law clearly covers.

[bersaguy]

The way I look at it,    .....................if it ain't broke don't fix it.............For the most part, yes there are instances that poor decisions are made by adults with firearms in the home but not that many. More laws on top of the laws already on the books will not fix anything.........jmho

[Omega]

What laws cover it?  Show me in the TCA.

 

 

 

Same as above.  Show me which laws in the TCA can cover the exact same circumstances this law clearly covers.

Try 39-15-401 - Child abuse and child neglect or endangerment.  Some of the more negligent cases surely fall under this statute.

[Worriedman]

39-15-402.  Haley's Law -- Aggravated child abuse and aggravated child neglect or endangerment -- Definitions.

  (a) A person commits the offense of aggravated child abuse, aggravated child neglect or aggravated child endangerment, who commits child abuse, as defined in § 39-15-401(a); child neglect, as defined in § 39-15-401(b); or child endangerment, as defined in § 39-15-401(c) and:

(2) A deadly weapon, dangerous instrumentality, controlled substance or controlled substance analogue is used to accomplish the act of abuse, neglect or endangerment;

[btq96r]

Try 39-15-401 - Child abuse and child neglect or endangerment.

39-15-402.  Haley's Law

 

Too vague for the things the law in question would create a clear and cut definition for.  "Neglect" in 401 has to be an act against the child:

   (2) For purposes of this subsection (c):

      (A) "Knowingly" means the person knew, or should have known upon a reasonable inquiry, that abuse to or neglect of the child would occur which would result in physical injury to the child. The risk must be of such a nature and degree that the failure to perceive it constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of care that an ordinary parent or legal custodian of a child eight (8) years of age or less would exercise under all the circumstances as viewed from the defendant's standpoint; and

 

 

Then, under Hailey's law, the term "is used" seems vague enough to lend doubt that unless someone commits an act against the child with a weapon, they couldn't be charged.

 

Both those laws are also contingent on harm coming to the child...the proposed law would make a child under 13 getting their hands on a firearm unsupervised good enough to prosecute on its own.

 

You're a district attorney...which law do you want to argue before a Judge & Jury...I'd take the one that makes it a clear open and shut case.

[Worriedman]

 

 

 

Both those laws are also contingent on harm coming to the child...the proposed law would make a child under 13 getting their hands on a firearm unsupervised good enough to prosecute on its own.

 

You are coming home from hunting, (you have no children at all, any age) and need to use the rest room.  You leave your shotgun and Turkey vest,(with ammo in the vest) in your truck and make a dash to the bath room...neighbor 12 year sees it through your truck window from his bedroom window, comes over and lays hands on it, or tells Dad he could. You having no expectation that an underage child has the opportunity to get it, I would think would be taken aback if the heat showed up and you were arrested, while in the loo.  Gun was available for the kid to get his hands on it, whether he did or not, he could have, there is nothing in the law that says bad acts by others are excused, (trespassing or theft). 

There is still a foul even if there is no harm on your part.

It was stored in a place where it was unavailable to the Owner or possessor, for a period of time, and the ammunition was in the vicinity.

 

Edited February 29, 2016 by Worriedman

[Worriedman]

Questions -Section (a), what is the intent with respect to the use of the term “recklessly” as an element of the offense?  For example, would it be an offense if the firearm were left in the adult’s bedroom (or workshop, etc.) in an area that is not frequented by children under the age of 13 but which a child, if in that area, could gain access?

Section (a)(1), talks in terms of the firearm being “readily accessible to the owner or possessor”?  Is the intent to restrict this element to only the owner or “possessor” as opposed to any other adult in the immediate area?  What if the non-owner asserts that they are not a “possessor” because, perhaps, of a prior mental health limit (such as PTSD) or other prohibited person status?

Section (a)(2), what if the ammunition is in the “immediate vicinity” but is not accessible to the child or readily capable of being placed into the weapon.  So, for example, the ammo is in a locked container, is at a height that is not accessible, or, in the instance of a black powder/muzzleloader weapon cannot be readily configured to fire without more knowledge that most children have.

 

Section [b](1) provides an exception if the firearm has a trigger locking or other similar device but it is qualified with this phrase “and only the person leaving, placing, or storing the firearm has the ability to remove the lock or other device;”  What if it does have an effective trigger lock or is in an access prevention container but other adults have the ability to remove the lock (e.g., it’s a combination lock)?

Section[b](2)[C] has a limitation similar to [b](1) by its use of the phrase “only the person or the person's spouse”.  What if the adults residing in the house are not married?  What if they are roommates or simply unmarried?  What if the house is multi-generational?

 

Edited February 29, 2016 by Worriedman

[btq96r]

You are coming home from hunting, (you have no children at all, any age) and need to use the rest room.  You leave your shotgun and Turkey vest,(with ammo in the vest) in your truck and make a dash to the bath room...neighbor 12 year sees it through your truck window from his bedroom window, comes over and lays hands on it, or tells Dad he could. You having no expectation that an underage child has the opportunity to get it, I would think would be taken aback if the heat showed up and you were arrested, while in the loo.  Gun was available for the kid to get his hands on it, whether he did or not, he could have, there is nothing in the law that says bad acts by others are excused, (trespassing or theft). 

There is still a foul even if there is no harm on your part.

It was stored in a place where it was unavailable to the Owner or possessor, for a period of time, and the ammunition was in the vicinity.

 

 

Lock the truck.  That should be a defense.

 

Like I said on the last page, the only thing I have an issue with is the term "secure box or gun safe."  I'd change that to something like  "any apparatus or storage space that can be secured with the goal of preventing unauthorized entry."  That way vehicles, closets with external locks, storage cabinets, ect., would be covered.

[300winmag]

This is a democrat sponsored anti gun bill that is endorsed by the Brady folks.  The bill shouldn't make it past committee vote in a super majority Republican legislature that is supposedly pro gun.  I'm surprised it is even being heard in the committee.   

 

There is really only one decent pro gun bill out there that actually helps a lot of people and that is the constitutional carry bill that has quite a few co sponsors.  There is nothing else of substance out there that helps most people with handgun carry permits, such as cutting restrictions on permits.

 

If this democrat sponsored bill makes it through committee, then that same committee needs to get behind the constitutional carry bill and/or amend some current bills to cut restrictions on permits. 

Edited March 1, 2016 by 300winmag

[M1_Garand]

Failed to get out of committee in the house.

 

http://www.wbir.com/news/politics/senate-to-consider-makaylas-law-on-tuesday/83527981

[Omega]

Failed to get out of committee in the house.

 

http://www.wbir.com/news/politics/senate-to-consider-makaylas-law-on-tuesday/83527981

Good, I could see a lot of abuse from this bill as written.

[Jonnin]

Well, as to the kids lifting and dropping the lock boxes to open them, they had to be taught that. It just does not happen that way in my opinion. And the kid with that fine slide tool he used. I'm willing to bet he was also taught how to do it. I have 3 lock boxes through out my house and I promise you no child will open them. After each purchase I did my own modifications to them that would prevent that. I also  pinned my boxes down to a very stable heavy base so they could not be picked up by any bad guys and toted off to open at a later date. If your going to invest the money in the boxes you also have to invest the time to make sure the boxes work like they should................jmho

 

I learned how to open cheap locks with a paperclip in the 4th grade.   I also knew how to open a interior locked door with a thin object like a ruler or credit card around the same time -- we could get into the teacher's locked cabinet with a pair of scissors.   I agree the little kid here has been taught but I learned to open poor quality stuff at an age that could have landed a gun in my hands.  Couple this relatively minor delinquency on my part with a problem kid that knew the same stuff and throw a gun into the box to stir the pot and you have real trouble. 

 

But that just goes back to what we know facing adult criminals etc too.   No safe can keep a determined person out.  Some take more determination than others, but they all will fail under the right circumstances.