Bill could make parents responsible for kids finding guns

[The Legion]

http://www.wmcactionnews5.com/story/31321756/bill-could-make-parents-responsible-for-kids-finding-guns

 

MEMPHIS, TN (WMC) -

Multiple stories have been reported where children have gotten their hands on loaded guns and it has turned out tragic.  

Loaded guns easily accessible to children have become a problem, and now a new bill might make parents think twice about where their loaded guns are stored.

The bill is calling for criminal charges when loaded guns are left out where children can pick them up.

There are 27 states with similar legislation, and now the bill is headed to the senate judiciary next month. For many people, they agree parents should be held more accountable if they choose to own guns with children in the home.

"If you're going to have a gun, you should be held accountable for what's done with the gun," Talisha Ingram said.

Two Democratic Tennessee state legislators have proposed have proposed the idea.

Representative Sherry Jones from Nashville and Senator Sara Kyle from Memphis are behind the bill that seeks a criminal penalty for an adult leaving a loaded gun unattended and accessible to a child under 13 years of age.

Even 9-year-old Zoe Ingram knows what the rules should be when it comes to guns.

"I think they should, because they shouldn't even have a gun when the kids are around," Zoe said.

The bill comes as several young children have died or been injured after picking up a gun in their own home or a relative's home.

Last year in Shelby County, 4-year-old Aabriel Jones Jr. died after finding a gun in his house and accidentally shot himself.

In 2014, a 6-year-old found a gun and shot a 4-year-old girl. She survived the shooting.

In 2012, a 10-year-old was accidentally shot and killed by his 12-year-old brother.

Those are just a few of the accidental shootings when children found guns.

The bill would also require licensed gun dealers to post signage warnings. It is a criminal offense to leave a loaded gun accessible to children.

[CommsNBombs]

I actually agree with this idea.

Safety is the most important part of owning a gun, and if takes the threat of judicial punishment to make certain people adhere to safety protocols that is fine by me.

As a parent of a young child I have ensuring I dont just leave guns laying EVERYWHERE like I did when I was single - I couldnt imagine being able to cope with the guilt if something like that happens.

Besides, if the Dems are allowed to push this we may get some political leeway in the way of taking down gun buster signs or getting ConCarry passed

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

[TripleDigitRide]

Parents should be held responsible.

[Obiwan]

I don't know. I'm all for incentives for gun safety, but a crime? Imagine a parent practicing good gun safety, but screwing up just once, and the child dies as a result of finding the gun. Not only has the parent to live with that guilt for the rest of her/his life, on top of that he/she is getting punished and sent to prison? Possibly leaving another child without parental care?

 

I think we need more gun safety education and awareness, not punishment. The loss of the child will be punishment enough.

 

If there is a gun owner that is a parent, and can not afford a lockbox or safe for his/her firearm, I'd be happy to purchase one for them. But really... if you can afford a gun, and can afford ammunition, you should be able to afford a couple hundred dollar safety lockbox.

 

Perhaps safety/lockboxes should be more visible in gun stores, and gun store staff should recommend one to a new gun owner. Everyone of us can do our part as well, like talking about safety when we're in a chat with a new gun owner at a store or range.

Edited February 26, 2016 by Obiwan

[Jonnin]

The wording concerns me.  

If a child causes harm using a GUN OWNED by the parent (or guardian etc), I am ok with it.   Most other scenarios should fall back to a case-by-case evaluation.

 

If a random unsupervised kid finds one somewhere not in their own home etc I have serious misgivings about blaming the gun owner. 

 

Also the age bothers me... a child over old enough to be in first grade knows better.   13 is very, very high.    By 13 you have drugs, sex, violence etc from problem kids.  They get ugly young these days.   If some punk 12 year old takes dad's gun and shoots someone, knowing full well how to load it and where the ammo is and what he is doing,  that is not the parent's fault.   12 year olds are past the "lets see whats in moms underwear drawer" stage.  

Edited February 26, 2016 by Jonnin

[nightrunner]

I don't know. I'm all for incentives for gun safety, but a crime? Imagine a parent practicing good gun safety, but screwing up just once, and the child dies as a result of finding the gun. Not only has the parent to live with that guilt for the rest of her/his life, on top of that he/she is getting punished and sent to prison? Possibly leaving another child without parental care?

I think we need more gun safety education and awareness, not punishment. The loss of the child will be punishment enough.

If there is a gun owner that is a parent, and can not afford a lockbox or safe for his/her firearm, I'd be happy to purchase one for them. But really... if you can afford a gun, and can afford ammunition, you should be able to afford a couple hundred dollar safety lockbox.

Perhaps safety/lockboxes should be more visible in gun stores, and gun store staff should recommend one to a new gun owner. Everyone of us can do our part as well, like talking about safety when we're in a chat with a new gun owner at a store or range.

My buddies dad owns a gun shop. He said by law he has to have trigger locks available to give to anyone who buys a gun and wants one for free. I'm assuming this is mostly for used guns as most all new guns come with them. But he has a big box of them in the back simply because he has to.

[gregintenn]

I thought parents were already responsible for the actions of a minor child.

[partypilot1]

This bill is going to make youth hunts very complicated. Most people I know that hunted as a child received a gun for their birthday at a young age. Stupid people make, support and pass stupid bills.

[Sidecarist]

Do we need another law? I would think endangering the welfare of a child and many other laws would apply already. To me this is more about publicly saying "see we're doing something"

Parents should be held responsible for their actions if they allow unsupervised access to firearms, but as far as I know they already can be held responsible in my ways using many existing laws. I just don't know that we need a new law to muddy the water with more interpretations...

[Omega]

Just strikes me as a move to get an anti-gun law on the books.  If this passes don't be surprised when a law is introduced making it mandatory to have all guns locked up in your home, ammo in different location etc.; making home defense nearly impossible.  I agree guns need to be kept out of the hands of children when they are unattended, but every kid is different, every household is different and most don't need the government telling them how to raise their kids.  And I am also wary of the wording and ages included, most kids are smart and can get into a locked container, know where parents keep keys etc.  I think more emphasis needs to be put on training, maybe free safety classes sponsored by gun manufacturers, dealers and LGS; kind of how some 4-wheeler dealers give free training with purchases.

[Just2Honor]

Obiwan:  I may have an excellent driving record and continue to practice safe habits, but if I run over someone I can, and probably, will be charged with a crime.  I believe in people taking responsibility for their actions, or in-actions.  "I tried to always be safe" sounds good but it isn't taking responsibility.

[DaveTN]

I thought parents were already responsible for the actions of a minor child.

They are. And I assume Tennessee has criminal reckless conduct laws that can be used to prosecute people that allow kids to get guns. (But I don’t know that for sure; most states do)

These are just laws people want to pass, because they can; they won’t get much (if any) opposition.

[Omega]

Obiwan:  I may have an excellent driving record and continue to practice safe habits, but if I run over someone I can, and probably, will be charged with a crime.  I believe in people taking responsibility for their actions, or in-actions.  "I tried to always be safe" sounds good but it isn't taking responsibility.

I think the point is that there are already laws on the books that can take care of gross negligence.  If you put a law on the books which targets gun owners it opens the door to greater restrictions.  I also don't feel all cases are the same, if a kid goes in and actively seeks out a weapon, comes out and uses it as intended, it is much different than when a parent leaves a gun in a purse in a vehicle with kids unsupervised.

[Obiwan]

My buddies dad owns a gun shop. He said by law he has to have trigger locks available to give to anyone who buys a gun and wants one for free. I'm assuming this is mostly for used guns as most all new guns come with them. But he has a big box of them in the back simply because he has to.

 

Yes, any new guns are sold with locks from the manufacturer, trigger lock or those you slide through the barrel, etc. That's not what I mean though. I'm talking about having some neat safety devices and lockboxes on display to showcase and hopefully gather interest, and to actually making it part of the conversation. For example, "congrats, enjoy your new Ruger. BTW: If you have kids how do you intend to keep the gun safe? We got these nifty little lockboxes..."  etc.

 

This law claims to prevent death by scaring gun owners. Well, it doesn't prevent death, it punishes death. Prevention involves more than punishment after the fact. As other said, there are already existing laws that can be applied.

 

The fact that a reactive punishment is proposed rather than a proactive solution (like the requirement of locks to be sold with new guns) means to me that the proposer of this law cares less about children safety and more about "gun punishment".

 

I don't know, maybe I'm thinking about this wrong. (my mind is weird sometimes). We tend to avoid hard proactive solutions in favor of easier reactive solutions, but pat ourselves on the back for doing something.

Edited February 26, 2016 by Obiwan

[E4 No More]

Parents should be held responsible.

They are; it's called child endangerment. This is just a feel good law. How do they plan to enforce this...conduct home inspections? Really, it's after the fact that we already have now.

[TripleDigitRide]

They are; it's called child endangerment. This is just a feel good law. How do they plan to enforce this...conduct home inspections? Really, it's after the fact that we already have now.

Good! Maybe this will bring enough attention to the subject, resulting in the serious punishment of irresponsible gun owners who leave unattended firearms around children.

Unfortunately, the only way for this law to be enforced will be AFTER the child is already dead from an accidental self-inflicted gunshot.

There are far too many irresponsible gun owners, and they should be severely punished. 

[Oh Shoot]

My buddies dad owns a gun shop. He said by law he has to have trigger locks available to give to anyone who buys a gun and wants one for free. .

 

hand guns only, as per federal law -- and it's not optional.

 

- OS

Edited February 27, 2016 by Oh Shoot

[Jonnin]

hand guns only, as per federal law -- and it's not optional.

 

- OS

 

Ive got a sackful of the stupid things,  I thought every gun came with one.

[Oh Shoot]

Ive got a sackful of the stupid things,  I thought every gun came with one.

 

Manufacturers include them with long guns because of various states' laws where that's required, and of course they don't know beforehand where any particular one will wind up being distributed to so it's simpler to just put them in all of them rather than re-handle at last minute before shipping.  Same as the stupid fired cartridge that was only required in two states (and now in none).

 

Some may well have done it just in the promotion of safety in general even if not required though.

 

- OS

Edited February 27, 2016 by Oh Shoot

[partypilot1]

Good! Maybe this will bring enough attention to the subject, resulting in the serious punishment of irresponsible gun owners who leave unattended firearms around children.
Unfortunately, the only way for this law to be enforced will be AFTER the child is already dead from an accidental self-inflicted gunshot.
There are far too many irresponsible gun owners, and they should be severely punished.

"And they should be severely punished" ....ya, like the child that you poured your love, hope, sweat and tears into is now dead from an accident that you are to blame AND that's not good enough.

Should we continue with this nonsense hold accountable the parents that lose their children in car accidents. When they chose to purchase a cheaper car that lacked the better safety rating?
"They too should be severely punished" so let's let the drug dealers walk while we fill the jails with people who unintentionally allowed harm to others by either a lack of vigilance or education instead of the other option of campaigns to bring awareness and education to the public.

Let's let entropy reign

[btq96r]

Maybe it's time we actually read the bill in question...just a thought.  It's actually not overly complicated legislation.

http://wapp.capitol.tn.gov/apps/BillInfo/Default.aspx?BillNumber=HB2058&ga=109

 

 

Fiscal Summary

Increase State Expenditures - $116,000/Incarceration*

Bill Summary

Under this bill, it will be an offense for a person to recklessly place, leave, or store a firearm in a location that is in plain view and readily accessible to a child under 13 years of age if the firearm:

(1) Is placed or stored for any period of time in a location in which the firearm is not immediately available to the owner or possessor of the firearm; or is temporarily left unattended by the owner or possessor of the firearm for any period of time; and
(2) Contains ammunition in the clip, magazine, or chamber, or ammunition for the unattended firearm is in the immediate vicinity of the firearm.

It will be an exception to offense that the firearm:

(1) Was left, placed, or stored while in a condition rendering it incapable of firing either by use of a trigger or other lock or similar device and only the person leaving, placing, or storing the firearm has the ability to remove the lock or other device; or
(2) Was placed or stored in a secure box or gun safe that is capable of locking; the box or safe was locked at the time the firearm was placed or stored; and only the person or the person's spouse placing or storing the firearm had the ability to remove the firearm from its secure place of storage or placement.

A violation of this bill will be:

(1) A Class A misdemeanor if a child under 13 years of age obtains possession of a firearm left, placed, or stored in violation of this bill but the child does not discharge the firearm or permit another to discharge it;
(2) A Class E felony if a child under 13 years of age obtains possession of a firearm left, placed, or stored in violation of this bill, the child discharges the firearm or permits another to discharge the firearm, and the discharge results in bodily injury to the child or another; and
(3) A Class C felony if a child under 13 years of age obtains possession of a firearm left, placed, or stored in violation of this bill, discharges the firearm or permits another to discharge the firearm, and the discharge results in the death of the child or another.

This bill requires, by February 1, 2017, all licensed gun dealers who sell firearms from a retail store to post signage warning that it is a criminal offense to leave a loaded firearm accessible to children under 13 years of age. This bill requires the department of safety to design the signage by January 1, 2017.

 

 

The term gun safe is pretty wide open to interpretation, but that's about the only questionable item I can see in this.  Basically, if you aren't in the room, you can't have a gun and ammo lying about if there is a kid under 13 present. 

 

The terms "reckless" and "in plain view" seem to negate the crazier scenario's here.  The age of 13 is specific enough to not interfere with hunting and other family gun stuff as well.  I wouldn't consider a kid ready to be left unsupervised with guns and ammo before that age anyway.  Also key are the words in the penalties part where the child has to actually obtain possession of a gun to trigger (no pun intended) the misdemeanor or felony charges.

 

Unless I'm missing something, I have no problem with this bill as I see it. I'd want to see the final copy to come out of committee, but I'm not getting any red flags.

[Sidecarist]

I still think there are plenty of existing laws that would apply such as reckless endangerment and many others.

It feels good to try and do something specific but is it the only way to handle this type of case? Have any irresponsible people NOT been charged in such cases because this law didn't exist?

We have so many laws on the books it's nearly impossible to keep track of them all. Many are conflicting or contradictory. I think the standard for passing new laws and regulations should be "is this the ONLY way to dour this"

[Worriedman]

The age of 13 is specific enough to not interfere with hunting and other family gun stuff as well.  I wouldn't consider a kid ready to be left unsupervised with guns and ammo before that age anyway. 

 

My grand daughter (12) has her own purpose built .25X.223 AR, and a 20 gauge Model 1100.  She has been reloading for them and shooting them for 4 years, and is as safe a gun handler as I know.  I keep loaded firearms in my home, they are not "locked" up or trigger locked (those not in the safe).  She knows where they are and how to use them, and is proficient with them. 

Take her to the Dr. and they run a questionnaire and she admits to having access to loaded firearms...tells a buddy that her Grand Father gave her a shotgun and some lib soccer mom tells the Police...I am a firm believer in Murphy.

I see no cosponsors on either House or Senate bill, and with a fiscal note, it will go behind the budget.  The governor would have to fund it out of his discretionary fund (or Beth, and I doubt that she will take that step prior to '18 governor's race) it is not going anywhere.

I have had my own weapons since I was 10, and so far have shot nothing accidentally, was responsible for their storage, maintenance and feeding since then.

The "plain view" hook does not hold through the rest of the verbiage of the bill, we have enough laws.

Edited February 27, 2016 by Worriedman

[TripleDigitRide]

"And they should be severely punished" ....ya, like the child that you poured your love, hope, sweat and tears into is now dead from an accident that you are to blame AND that's not good enough.

Um, yes! Loving your child doesn't somehow eliminate the need for being a responsible gun owner. As a matter of fact, if you loved your children, you wouldn't leave them unattended with loaded firearms.

If you have young children, or older children who can't be trusted around firearms, you don't leave your gun on the coffee table while you go to the bathroom. You don't leave it and your child in the vehicle while you run into store. Both scenarios have unnecessarily taken the lives of many young children. There is no excuse for these type of "accidents" to happen. None!  

Should we continue with this nonsense hold accountable the parents that lose their children in car accidents. When they chose to purchase a cheaper car that lacked the better safety rating?

Um, no! But if a parent allows their child to drink a six pack and get behind the wheel, resulting in the death of the child or anyone else, yes, they should most certainly be held accountable. Yes, even if they poured their love, hope, sweat and tears into the child, they should still be held accountable for irresponsible behavior.  

"They too should be severely punished" so let's let the drug dealers walk while we fill the jails with people who unintentionally allowed harm to others by either a lack of vigilance or education instead of the other option of campaigns to bring awareness and education to the public.

Um, I have no idea what that has to do with anything I have said.

Let's let entropy reign

Um, that's exactly what we'd have if we allowed irresponsible gun owners to go unchecked.

If we already have laws on the books that cover this type of thing, fine, we don't need more. However, to suggest that a parent who loves their child should somehow be exempt from being a responsible gun owner is just insane.

Edited February 27, 2016 by TripleDigitRide

[Omega]

Under this bill, it will be an offense for a person to recklessly place, leave, or store a firearm in a location that is in plain view and readily accessible to a child under 13 years of age if the firearm:
 
(1) Is placed or stored for any period of time in a location in which the firearm is not immediately available to the owner or possessor of the firearm; or is temporarily left unattended by the owner or possessor of the firearm for any period of time; and
(2) Contains ammunition in the clip, magazine, or chamber, or ammunition for the unattended firearm is in the immediate vicinity of the firearm.
-----------------------------------------------------
A violation of this bill will be:
(1) A Class A misdemeanor if a child under 13 years of age obtains possession of a firearm left, placed, or stored in violation of this bill but the child does not discharge the firearm or permit another to discharge it;

So, let's get this straight; because I leave a gun in my nightstand (loaded otherwise it's useless) and there happens to be a 13 or under kid in the house, and said child gets possession but nothing happens I can be charged?  

 

Lean a shotgun up against a tree, and get your grandson/daughter to fetch it...get charged.

 

Kid breaks in, gets your gun, you get charged. Etc. Etc. Etc.

 

Yea, sounds like it's for the kids....