Blackwater Security Guards (2 from TN?!?)

[Guest bkelm18]

I don't think they operate like that. Those guys tend to be consummate professionals.

And Blackwater is not? Hence the underlined "what if". Replace SEALS with the American soldier of your choice.

[Jasongar8]

the bolded comment proves you dont know j.s.

I guess since I'm not a mod. I cant have an opinion? I didnt say that it was what everyone should think but its what I believe. I think the 1st amendment gives me the right to have an opinion doesnt it Mr. mod?

-Jason G

[Magiccarpetrides]

Being nothing but a fanboy and having absolutely no military experience I think for the pay that is given working for Blackwater would be a dandy job. However, I also think that maybe if the news media is right (normally they arent) Blackwater outta do better screening of their employees mental background to make sure they arent so trigger happy and possess better critical thinking skills. I do find it abhorrent that the government can use a 1988 (thanks for the source T.) machine gun law to try these guys. Hell if they really did do what is stated they shouldnt be tried for this but for at the very least manslaughter...but then again using a machine gun carries stiffer penalties then murder Hopefully the Justice system will do the right thing whatever that may be but somehow I doubt it.

[Guest bkelm18]

I guess since I'm not a mod. I cant have an opinion? I didnt say that it was what everyone should think but its what I believe. I think the 1st amendment gives me the right to have an opinion doesnt it Mr. mod?

-Jason G

Well seeing as how Junglist probably has first hand knowledge of Iraqi citizens, I would venture to guess that he is probably more knowledgeable on that subject.

[TGO David]

Being nothing but a fanboy and having absolutely no military experience I think for the pay that is given working for Blackwater would be a dandy job. However, I also think that maybe if the news media is right (normally they arent) Blackwater outta do better screening of their employees mental background to make sure they arent so trigger happy and possess better critical thinking skills

See above regarding the DOD's own involvement in approving Blackwater contractors. Also, you seem to be suggesting (even if hypothetically) that Blackwater doesn't screen their people very well. I have no evidence of this. Do you?

[TGO David]

I guess since I'm not a mod. I cant have an opinion? I didnt say that it was what everyone should think but its what I believe. I think the 1st amendment gives me the right to have an opinion doesnt it Mr. mod?

-Jason G

Oh boo fricking hoo. The reverse is way more often the case around here. Moderators aren't supposed to have opinions because voicing them might stifle the creativity of someone else with a counter opinion.

Unless a moderator is abusing his power, there's no reason to point out that a person involved in the conversation IS a moderator. Get over it.

[Daniel]

I guess since I'm not a mod. I cant have an opinion? I didnt say that it was what everyone should think but its what I believe. I think the 1st amendment gives me the right to have an opinion doesnt it Mr. mod?

-Jason G

Maybe it has nothing to do with being a mod and more to do with never having been to Iraq to know what "most Iraqis" would or would not do. I rarely met a hajji that wanted to kill me, an american soldier, let alone innocent women and children.

[Guest bkelm18]

I never said that. You drew that conclusion for some reason. From what I'm reading elsewhere, Blackwater contractors are pretty well vetted:

Actually I think that as an American contractor for American interests, Blackwater staffs with a higher level of professionalism than some of it's foreign competitors do. Some of the foreign firms will let damn near anyone contract to them, as evidenced by the fact that you now have schools like Tactical Response offering to teach you everything you need to know to escape your desk job and go become a High Risk Security Contractor in distant lands.

Ok, well we can "agree to disagree" since we aren't exactly arguing the same points and I've pretty much been having a s***y day anyway so I'll just let it go.

[TGO David]

Ok, well we can "agree to disagree" since we aren't exactly arguing the same points and I've pretty much been having a s***y day anyway so I'll just let it go.

You posed the question as to whether or not Blackwater employees are consummate professionals, as I described the Navy SEALS as being. I merely presented evidence that suggests that they are.

[Guest Revelator]

I think the government is setting itself up for a difficult time in prosecuting this case. Even if they have jurisdiction, are they really going to be able to prove murder in the heat of battle? I don't know if they have any evidence other than eyewitnesses, and eyewitness evidence can be some of the worst proof out there. Especially in a situation like this, with bombs going off and bullets flying. I'm sure it was a very chaotic scene and I think the witnesses' credibility and memory are going to be an issue. Also, these are Iraqis who likely don't speak English, and on top of that the government is going to have to bring them all the way over here. All in all, I see this being a circus and a waste of taxpayer dollars. Let the Iraq government handle it.

[Jasongar8]

Maybe it has nothing to do with being a mod and more to do with never having been to Iraq to know what "most Iraqis" would or would not do. I rarely met a hajji that wanted to kill me, an american soldier, let alone innocent women and children.

And I am the first one to stand up and say THANK YOU for what you do/done for our country, but I was just trying to give an opinion, it maybe not right but good men like you fight so we can have an opinion. Again thank you for your service.

-Jason G

[Guest bkelm18]

You posed the question as to whether or not Blackwater employees are consummate professionals, as I described the Navy SEALS as being. I merely presented evidence that suggests that they are.

That wasn't the question I asked. But its all good.

[Magiccarpetrides]

See above regarding the DOD's own involvement in approving Blackwater contractors. Also, you seem to be suggesting (even if hypothetically) that Blackwater doesn't screen their people very well. I have no evidence of this. Do you?

Whoa whoa whoa there....I made my post whilst you were making yours...hence why it was not read. I have no evidence of either...I was only infering that the people mentioned were very "trigger happy psycho" if...and only IF what the media stated was true(which I assume it probably isnt). Of course even with proper screening theres always gonna be some bad apples.

[Daniel]

I think the government is setting itself up for a difficult time in prosecuting this case. Even if they have jurisdiction, are they really going to be able to prove murder in the heat of battle? I don't know if they have any evidence other than eyewitnesses, and eyewitness evidence can be some of the worst proof out there. Especially in a situation like this, with bombs going off and bullets flying. I'm sure it was a very chaotic scene and I think the witnesses' credibility and memory are going to be an issue. Also, these are Iraqis who likely don't speak English, and on top of that the government is going to have to bring them all the way over here. All in all, I see this being a circus and a waste of taxpayer dollars. Let the Iraq government handle it.

Maybe that is the idea. Make a big show, charge them with serious offenses, prosecute, then not be able to convict.

The problem with that though is the one guy taking a deal.

[Guest 153blue]

were they shooting back in self defense? or were they just massacring innocents?

[Daniel]

The .gov says that they were firing without being fired upon. Blackwater has always claimed they were reacting to contact.

[Guest Verbal Kint]

Maybe that is the idea. Make a big show, charge them with serious offenses, prosecute, then not be able to convict.

The problem with that though is the one guy taking a deal.

Yeah... notice that one guy is a fruit from California. Go figure.

[Guest Verbal Kint]

The .gov says that they were firing without being fired upon. Blackwater has always claimed they were reacting to contact.

Ever see the movie Rules of Engagement, with Samuel L Jackson and Tommy Lee Jones? Don't want to mix Hollywood with reality... but just saying. A justified use of force can turn pretty shady, pretty quick, especially on foreign soil.

[Daniel]

Ever see the movie Rules of Engagement, with Samuel L Jackson and Tommy Lee Jones? Don't want to mix Hollywood with reality... but just saying. A justified use of force can turn pretty shady, pretty quick, especially on foreign soil.

I have not but Im sure I could find it.

[Guest Verbal Kint]

I have not but Im sure I could find it.

Very good movie. Definitely a must see / must own.

[bteague2]

What I don't understand is how can they be charged here? As far as I know that 30 year sentence for using a MG in a crime is an American law and doesn't apply in Iraq right?

[Angus]

Ok, the fact is my wife is a legal assitant and her boss is not a total DB. But this sounds like a serious case of an ambulance chaser trying to make it big and famous. Get his 15 minutes. Maybe this is my tired brain spewing ignorance, but damn.

As I understand it, they are contracted my the US Government to aid military? If they did do something wrong, why are they not being tried by the military? Again, this my be ignorance, but I would think the military would have some legal jurisdiction over them? Am I way off base?

What TDR said, there was alot of bad press about Blackwater, making them look like mercenaries or something. That could have been complete liberal news spin, but there could have been some truth to it, I don't know? I'd like to believe that these dudes are not over there just to mow down the general public.

As far as Tungstens first post..Amen.

Civialian lawyers need to stay off the battlefield. Let military justice handle military issues.

There are things that we, as civilians, need to know nothing about. I personally don't care how the job gets done, just get it done and hopefully come home alive. I don't care about tortures at gitmo. Some people, I honestly believe, just need to be tortured. I personally don't have the nuts to do it, but somebody needs to do it and Dan fkn Rather does not need to tell me about it!!

[Daniel]

Blackwater works for the state department not the military.

They are mercenaries.

A mercenary is a person who takes part in an armed conflict, who is not a national or a party to the conflict, and is "motivated to take part in the hostilities essentially by the desire for private gain and, in fact, is promised, by or on behalf of a party to the conflict, material compensation substantially in excess of that promised or paid to combatants of similar ranks and functions in the armed forces of that Party" (Additional Protocol I to the Geneva Convention of August 1949).

[Magiccarpetrides]

GO MERCS! lol

[Guest abailey362]

What I don't understand is how can they be charged here? As far as I know that 30 year sentence for using a MG in a crime is an American law and doesn't apply in Iraq right?

as i understand the law, someone who is on foreign soil on american time (military mainly) is subject to american law and trials. since blackwater is an independent contractor, they should, IMO, be considered to be there on their own time and would only be subject to local law. Now that argument would probably lead to trials in Iraq, which would most likely result in a worse outcome than 30 years on the MG charges here.

Also, if the MG rules applied, why hasn't the ATF tried to charge them with possession as well. They would want in on the gang banger who used and "

illegal" weapon in the crimes that the law was written to help prosecute