Arrests for student loan defaults

[A.J. Holst]

Wait until the debts for ACA become more prevalent. It will eventually be just like mandatory car insurance. Don't have it, get fined but if you don't pay the ACA fine I can guarantee it will someday, hopefully not soon, be a criminal offense.

Since the ACA is a tax and tax enforcement falls under the police power of the IRS, I can see student loan default being released classified as criminal / intent to commit tax fraud.

[suspiciousmind]

Someone explain the difference between a loan default and theft. If you agree to pay a certain and amount and attach a signature to a legal document then you are obliged to pay that money. If you don't, you are stealing it from the entity from which you borrowed it.
Defaulting or refusing to pay back a contractual loan is theft. If you stole that money by any other means, you'd go to jail.

Caster, sometimes people go through what is called "financial hardship" due to medical problems, death in the family, depression, job loss, or any combination of the above. I am sure that a man like yourself that is so obviously compassionate could understand such a simple human experience.

You've either never experienced hardship in your life and dealt with financial difficulty or you just don't understand the basic tenets of humanity. Either way, the way you have presented yourself in this thread dripping with sarcasm about millennials being unable to pay back loans due to gargantuan interest makes me question your ability to be a human being.. Stuff happens, people have life problems, student loan debt is a HUGE problem and just telling people to get responsible using knuckle dragging speech is not the way to solve it.

[Grand Torino]

When you borrow money you have a legal and moral obligation to repay it. Money lent by the government should not be any less important that money spent for rent or your car. Of course you have the ability to declare bankruptcy and live with your decision for years with your less than spectacular credit rating. Should you be arrested for not paying your student loans? Probably not a good idea.

 

As far as financial hardship is concerned a lot of people have it for various reasons but does not give anyone an excuse to not pay your debts. It takes time, effort and responsibility to restructure you debts with creditors or yes...even go bankrupt. It does not however give you the right to just flush your debts. When folks don't live up to their obligations there should be a bit of discomfort and hardship involved with it.

 

A side note....both my wife and I have bachelor's degrees and have never owed a dime. We got ours through 26 years of service in the military...studying a little at a time over time. The thing about it is if you don't pass a class you have to pay the VA back for that class. What a revolutionary idea. I'm not saying the military is for everyone but none the less.....there is a way to get a degree without going totally in debt.

[suspiciousmind]

When you borrow money you have a legal and moral obligation to repay it. Money lent by the government should not be any less important that money spent for rent or your car. Of course you have the ability to declare bankruptcy and live with your decision for years with your less than spectacular credit rating. Should you be arrested for not paying your student loans? Probably not a good idea.
 
As far as financial hardship is concerned a lot of people have it for various reasons but does not give anyone an excuse to not pay your debts. It takes time, effort and responsibility to restructure you debts with creditors or yes...even go bankrupt. It does not however give you the right to just flush your debts. When folks don't live up to their obligations there should be a bit of discomfort and hardship involved with it.
 
A side note....both my wife and I have bachelor's degrees and have never owed a dime. We got ours through 26 years of service in the military...studying a little at a time over time. The thing about it is if you don't pass a class you have to pay the VA back for that class. What a revolutionary idea. I'm not saying the military is for everyone but none the less.....there is a way to get a degree without going totally in debt.

.

Well put.

[Sam1]

Student loan debt is one area of our economy that is positively unsustainable.  Something is going to change because there's not another option.  It has to.

 

One of the few on here with massive student loan debt (in the six figure range), I agree with you completely.

 

What I think needs to happen is some type of weighing the amount of money they can get with the field that they are going into.  I don't know how this could happen, but it makes no sense to me that people are blowing through $50k to get a bachelors in fields like "historical liberal arts in the study of women's rights between 1972-1973"  or whatever stupid degree they can find.  Mine cost a lot, but it's in a legit field that will not be going away and I knew going in how much it would cost.

They need to calculate something like the average salary of a starting person in that field and the unemployment rate (and how many people are actually working in that field) in the field into the equation of how much money people can borrow instead of having a generic amount for everyone.

 

Even though I am paying them back, if uncle Bernie wants to forgive my loans, I would gladly take him up on that. :D

[frankmako]

you take the loan, you pay it back.  

[Caster]

Caster, sometimes people go through what is called "financial hardship" due to medical problems, death in the family, depression, job loss, or any combination of the above. I am sure that a man like yourself that is so obviously compassionate could understand such a simple human experience.
You've either never experienced hardship in your life and dealt with financial difficulty or you just don't understand the basic tenets of humanity. Either way, the way you have presented yourself in this thread dripping with sarcasm about millennials being unable to pay back loans due to gargantuan interest makes me question your ability to be a human being.. Stuff happens, people have life problems, student loan debt is a HUGE problem and just telling people to get responsible using knuckle dragging speech is not the way to solve it.

...and that line of reasoning is just one of many reasons this country has skyrocketed into the poor house. It's entitlement mentality. Yeah, crap happens and times get hard, that's life. It doesn't excuse shirking commitments and responsibility but that seems perfectly acceptable to the millennials you mention. Sounds more like whining about fairness. It's obviously escaped this generations notice but life isn't fair.
You make commitments, you ink your signature, you give your word....you make good on it or make private arrangements which, if mutually acceptable to both lender and borrower, is no one else's business.

If it makes me a subhuman knuckle dragger so be it. Most of the nanny state, entitled, irresponsible, piss ant millennials are lower than the sht I scrape off my boots after a day's work and I don't give two wags of a rats azz what their opinion of me is, or anyone else's for that matter.
Everything I have, I've worked for. I don't owe nobody squat. I may not have much, but it's mine.

[56FordGuy]

It's not that cut and dry in my opinion. These companies are financially ruining young people that want to pursue a quality higher education. It's pure greed in exchange for a dream. It's a different climate. It isn't "back in the day" when you could pay for schooling with a spare job.

I regret going to college because of the debt. It is really s*itty to say that, and everyone in my generation that isn't blessed with wealthy parents feel the same.

 

 

 

Nonsense. While not traditional college, I went through a $26,000 tech school program. Paid for it by working "part time" 40 hour night shifts in a semi truck shop while in school, then going "full time" 50 hour weeks once I graduated. I didn't buy into the "everybody should go to college" line, I looked at what my skillset and interest was and how to squeeze the best income out of it. I could've gone the college route (graduated HS a year early with a 3.8 gpa), but I felt it wasn't for me and my parents supported my decision. Doesn't change the fact that I spent $26,000 for a year of education and paid it off in a year- six months of which while I was still in school. If some idiot decides to spend $100k to get a degree in art, they better have a plan to make money off that degree. If they can't pay it back, it nobody's fault but their own.

 

My better half went a different route and came out of law school with six figure loan debt. No whining, no crying, no asking for help. You made the decision to take on the debt, I made the decision to spend my life with you. Now we get to live on nothing, work like crazy and pay it off. Took years of 90 hour work weeks, miserable jobs, insufferable bosses, but once it was done it was over and we could move on with life. 

 

The only people financially ruining young people are stupid young people, or maybe their parents. Maybe. I'm still going to blame the guy signing the loan paperwork first, but kids who were never allowed to experience problems as a kid don't know how to handle them as an adult. It's not that I don't have empathy for folks who have suffered catastrophic health issues, but nobody made you sign up for the debt. 

Edited February 18, 2016 by 56FordGuy

[MrsMonkeyMan2500]

Nobody made them sign up for the debt but if you're going to blame these kids let's remember their parents let them play sports where points didn't matter. Where no was a bad word because it's "mean" or "could hurt the child's feelings". Parents of this generation are just as responsible even if they didn't sign the loan papers.

I didn't go to college. I've worked part time since I was 15, full time since 18. I learned skills along the way and did that on my own. I make a decent living and my mom disciplined me. I knew the word no and I knew what being "poor" was. Even though by today's standards we were probably middle class. Life is what you choose to make it and parents play a part in teaching that roll. Let's not blame just the stupid kids. Let's also blame the parents afraid to actually teach there children about life. Edited February 18, 2016 by MrsMonkeyMan2500

[Omega]

Though I agree with most on here, I'll play devil's advocate.  Isn't government money OUR money?  So if you borrow from the government, you are only borrowing your own money. :dropjaw:

[crossfire]

Though I agree with most on here, I'll play devil's advocate.  Isn't government money OUR money?  So if you borrow from the government, you are only borrowing your own money. :dropjaw:

:wall:

[Caster]

Though I agree with most on here, I'll play devil's advocate.  Isn't government money OUR money?  So if you borrow from the government, you are only borrowing your own money. :dropjaw:

This is assuming the person paid taxes in the first place.

[monkeylizard]

It would be more correct to say that the person borrowing from the government is borrowing Xi Jinping's money.

Edited February 18, 2016 by monkeylizard

[56FordGuy]

Nobody made them sign up for the debt but if you're going to blame these kids let's remember their parents let them play sports where points didn't matter. Where no was a bad word because it's "mean" or "could hurt the child's feelings". Parents of this generation are just as responsible even if they didn't sign the loan papers.

 

 

Fair point. Kids need to have problems, so they learn how to handle bad things. 

 

Ultimately, the person who signed the paperwork is responsible. Don't care about the excuses, part of liberty is responsibility which means...you get you. You do the things you do, you get to own them. 

[Omega]

It would be more correct to say that the person borrowing from the government is borrowing Xi Jinping's money.

So, we can expect these guys then:

https://youtu.be/Ar488YDPzrE

[Oh Shoot]

Nonsense. While not traditional college, I went through a $26,000 tech school program. Paid for it by working "part time" 40 hour night shifts in a semi truck shop while in school, then going "full time" 50 hour weeks once I graduated. ....

My better half went a different route and came out of law school with six figure loan debt. No whining, no crying, no asking for help. You made the decision to take on the debt, I made the decision to spend my life with you. Now we get to live on nothing, work like crazy and pay it off.....

 

Though I admittedly basically drifted through college with no clear intent of what the hell I was there for, I paid for it all, including plenty of partying. Bout only help from the folks was just throwing some "here treat yourself" bucks my way from time to time, birthday money and such.
 
How? 6 summers of digging ditches for the utility board, killing trees on a land crew, and sweating in a paper mill during both grade and high school, a couple of small scholarships, another summer in the paper mill after freshman year. Knocked the grades outta the park freshman year, and then cruised on that the other three years, worked 20-30 hours a week in private clubs (was a bartender before I was old enough to legally drink, and this was before liquor by the drink was legalized, so admittedly there was lots of money to make doing that then), did research for a couple of profs, whatnot.
 
Even included dropping out a year and hitting the hippie dippie Summer of Love trail (one summer late). :)
 
Anyway, lots of ways to approach the situation, and it's certainly not a given that you just must simply borrow enough money to go straight though to the exclusion of the rest of life. Ain't knocking the folks who do it that way, but purt obvious that you'd better have a reasonable plan and expectations of ROI upon graduation, and you two exemplify how you do both methods.

 

But it's also purt obvious that at least half the folks who go way in debt for college have some bad combo of unrealistic expectations, poor planning, or like how has been mentioned, just a devil may care attitude about personal responsibility -- the last of which is probably the worst thing of all that liberal politics has done to this country over time.
 
- OS

Edited February 18, 2016 by Oh Shoot

[suspiciousmind]

...and that line of reasoning is just one of many reasons this country has skyrocketed into the poor house. It's entitlement mentality. Yeah, crap happens and times get hard, that's life. It doesn't excuse shirking commitments and responsibility but that seems perfectly acceptable to the millennials you mention. Sounds more like whining about fairness. It's obviously escaped this generations notice but life isn't fair.
You make commitments, you ink your signature, you give your word....you make good on it or make private arrangements which, if mutually acceptable to both lender and borrower, is no one else's business.

If it makes me a subhuman knuckle dragger so be it. Most of the nanny state, entitled, irresponsible, piss ant millennials are lower than the sht I scrape off my boots after a day's work and I don't give two wags of a rats azz what their opinion of me is, or anyone else's for that matter.
Everything I have, I've worked for. I don't owe nobody squat. I may not have much, but it's mine.

It is drilled into every kid's skull that you either go to college, or you're somehow not on the same level as other people. How is this entitlement when this is the stuff that was spoon fed to everyone?

You're taught from day one that the best way to get ahead in life is to get a degree. You get a degree and then what? You can't get a job? I know a lot of bartenders with great degrees. Edited February 18, 2016 by suspiciousmind

[Omega]

It is drilled into every kid's skull that you either go to college, or you're somehow not on the same level as other people. How is this entitlement when this is the stuff that was spoon fed to everyone?

You're taught from day one that the best way to get ahead in life is to get a degree. You get a degree and then what? You can't get a job? I know a lot of bartenders with great degrees.

That is why it's up to the parents to shine a little reality into their lives.  If parents keep raising their kids without some reality checks it will be a bitter disappointment for most of them when they realize that they actually have to work for their success.

[Caster]

Then that's the lie people have swallowed.
You are guaranteed Life, Liberty and the PURSUIT of happiness. Not happiness but the pursuit. If one cannot find it in their pursuit of it, too bad.
***In theory, for most people, Happiness and Success in the life are somewhat synonymous.


I've never seen a college campus and would not have gone if offered a full ride to Vanderbilt.
I've never been an educated man, don't care to be. I'm fully content with being a greaser. I get dirty for a living and my hands have semi permanent grease stains to prove it. Some folks ain't happy with that. Again...too bad.

None of this justifies not paying your debts. I've been in debt before. I decided I wanted a new Toyota. Went in debt to get it. It's paid for now, but had I found myself in a situation where I could not have paid for it, they would have repossessed it. Under no wild delusions the mind can come up with would I have been justified in keeping it. Until paid for, that vehicle belonged to Toyota ...or who the heck ever I got a loan with. Whatever, an education cannot be repossessed. It's not a tangible asset.
Personally I think the loaning system would benefit greatly and find itself much better off if they would demand collateral. They have a right to security on their end.

[E4 No More]

I think that this whole conversation is pretty silly. It's easy for people to be critical when they have no skin in the game. So you went college on your own dime? Great. I'm glad the circumstances in YOUR life allowed you to do so. So you didn't go to college? Great! I'm glad that the circumstance in YOUR life worked out for you too. You want to spend 30 years to get a 4 year degree so that you pay for it a little at a time without debt but the degree is useless when you get it? Great! I'm glad that YOUR life circumstances allow you to do so.

 

I'm struck by the amount of people who would bitch about college being free for those who desire to learn but bitch about the system as it is. News flash: You can't bankrupt out of student debt, period! It's your debt until you pay it off or die. This guy got arrested for contempt of court; not for not paying his debt. He thumbed his nose at the judge and got what he deserved.

[56FordGuy]

This guy got arrested for contempt of court; not for not paying his debt. He thumbed his nose at the judge and got what he deserved.

Funny how folks are willing to bring that up now. Just a few months ago when Kim Davis was arrested for contempt of court, some of the same folks were screaming that it was because of her religion, not disobeying a judge's order. By that logic wasn't this kid arrested for not paying his bills?

For the record, I don't care if he was arrested or not. If you can't afford to go to college, maybe you shouldn't go.

[MacGyver]

I'm going to try to respond to this thread in more detail when I've got some time.  Higher education is changing a lot, and in a lot of respects is a different animal today than it's ever been in the past.  A few thoughts:

 

1. Higher education - like most other areas of our economy is being raped by the finance industry.  They're taking all they can get, and there are a lot of participants.  They're not going to stop until they drive it (and the economy) off the cliff or some other force acts upon them.
2. The universities have been participating in raising costs to where it's difficult to work your way through school at these elevated tuition levels.  Not saying it can't be done, but it's a lot more difficult than it was 20 years ago when I was in school.
3. There is a fundamental failing at the family/high school/mentor level where college is sort of expected.  For a lot of big organizations today, the bachelors degree is sort of the new high school diploma.  Frankly, there are a lot of positions that simply aren't available to someone without a four year degree.  So, to some extent, companies are feeding this problem, but it's something that's going to have to be addressed.  And, to address it, we may have to start to go back to the old days where "college isn't for everyone."
4. People in counseling roles need to have honest conversations with the students they are counseling about what the debt load is going to look like in  comparison to what you're going to make.  Mind you, a lot of these students aren't in a position to hear this when all they've heard is, "do what you love." But, we need to have that conversation.  Study something that will allow you to feed yourself - then do what you love.
5. If a student is going to graduate from college with more total debt than the salary level they can expect to make in their first year out of school, someone needs to have a hard conversation with them.  They're going to be a slave to debt for a long time, and they need to know what that looks like.
6. We need to encourage a return to the trades.  I teach at the university level, both undergraduate and graduate.  I tell my students all the time about paying welders more in 1995 than many of them will make upon graduation today.  For the health of the economy - we need healthy trades.  
7. At the university level, I think we need to have an honest discussion about what the heck we're doing.  Frankly, a lot of college is glorified trade school these days as they just sort of regurgitate what companies tell them they're looking for.  We're not teaching.  We're making good little "information worker" drones.  Teaching people how to think and solve hard problems is important - and most of our universities have lost this ability.  I think in the future, universities may look more like the universities of old where there is a liberal arts grounding with room for experimentation and learning in the sciences.
8. There are alternative paths emerging with a lot more sustainable cost structure - and this is really exciting.  Coursera, EdX, etc... are making some awesome content available.  If you want to learn - and the piece of paper at the end isn't that important, there is some great stuff out there.  I've taken several Stanford courses over the past couple of years for free, and the content was on par with any class I had in undergraduate school.  
9. Learn to code.  In today's economy you'll be able to feed yourself and your family.  You'll be able to think about problems in different ways, and you'll likely never hurt for opportunity.

[E4 No More]

Funny how folks are willing to bring that up now. Just a few months ago when Kim Davis was arrested for contempt of court, some of the same folks were screaming that it was because of her religion, not disobeying a judge's order. By that logic wasn't this kid arrested for not paying his bills?

For the record, I don't care if he was arrested or not. If you can't afford to go to college, maybe you shouldn't go.

I get what you're saying: however, there's a big difference in a judge telling you to appear before him/her and a judge telling you to violate your religious belief.

[E4 No More]

 

I'm going to try to respond to this thread in more detail when I've got some time.  Higher education is changing a lot, and in a lot of respects is a different animal today than it's ever been in the past.  A few thoughts:

 

1. Higher education - like most other areas of our economy is being raped by the finance industry.  They're taking all they can get, and there are a lot of participants.  They're not going to stop until they drive it (and the economy) off the cliff or some other force acts upon them.
2. The universities have participating in raising costs to where it's difficult to work your way through school at these elevated tuition levels.  Not saying it can't be done, but it's a lot more difficult than it was 20 years ago when I was in school.
3. There is a fundamental failing at the family/high school/mentor level where college is sort of expected.  For a lot of big organizations today, the bachelors degree is sort of the new high school diploma.  Frankly, there are a lot of positions that simply aren't available to someone without a four year degree.  So, to some extent, companies are feeding this problem, but it's something that's going to have to be addressed.  And, to address it, we may have to start to go back to the old days where "college isn't for everyone."
4. People in counseling roles need to have honest conversations with the students they are counseling about what the debt load is going to look like in  comparison to what you're going to make.  Mind you, a lot of these students aren't in a position to hear this when all they've heard is, "do what you love." But, we need to have that conversation.  Study something that will allow you to feed yourself - then do what you love.
5. If a student is going to graduate from college with more total debt than the salary level they can expect to make in their first year out of school, someone needs to have a hard conversation with them.  They're going to be a slave to debt for a long time, and they need to know what that looks like.
6. We need to encourage a return to the trades.  I teach at the university level, both undergraduate and graduate.  I tell my students all the time about paying welders more in 1995 than many of them will make upon graduation today.  For the health of the economy - we need healthy trades.  
7. At the university level, I think we need to have an honest discussion about what the heck we're doing.  Frankly, a lot of college is glorified trade school these days as they just sort of regurgitate what companies tell them they're looking for.  We're not teaching.  We're making good little "information worker" drones.  Teaching people how to think and solve hard problems is important - and most of our universities have lost this ability.  I think in the future, universities may look more like the universities of old where there is a liberal arts grounding with room for experimentation and learning in the sciences.
8. There are alternative paths emerging with a lot more sustainable cost structure - and this is really exciting.  Coursera, EdX, etc... are making some awesome content available.  If you want to learn - and the piece of paper at the end isn't that important, there is some great stuff out there.  I've taken several Stanford courses over the past couple of years for free, and the content was on par with any class I had in undergraduate school.  
9. Learn to code.  In today's economy you'll be able to feed yourself and your family.  You'll be able to think about problems in different ways, and you'll likely never hurt for opportunity.

 

In this case there would be no doctors or lawyers for sure. I don't think the latter would be a bad thing. :)

[MacGyver]

In this case there would be no doctors or lawyers for sure. I don't think the latter would be a bad thing. :)

 

Increasingly, more doctors and lawyers are starting to have these conversations.  Doctors are being hit from all sides.  As debt loads increase, salaries are less, insurance costs are up, and other factors come into play - a lot of students are looking at it and deciding it's not worth it.

 

Law is changing, too.  A lot of students are looking at the traditional model of working 80+ hours a week in a big firm for peanuts for years before maybe becoming a partner and are pushing back.  Couple that with the fact that there are some other routes available to law school.  Nashville School of Law is a great example.  Students take a class or two at a time, and it's pay as you go.  Almost all work and go to school at night - they graduate with little or no debt.  Some big school lawyers speak poorly of it, but those are generally ones who haven't been up against them in court.  I remember talking to a colleague who was Harvard Law educated talking about getting his tail end handed to him by a Nashville School of Law graduate in the court room.