Informing a LEO that your carrying, at a traffic stop

[Guest IzzyIsaac]

I was a DD for two of my buddies one night in the boro and was driving a vehicle that belonged to one of them. We had ate some dodge's chicken before heading across the street where i was taking them. As i pulled out i went through the center lane on broad st which is barreled off for construction i guess. I assumed the barrels were to keep people from driving in the lane and not keep from getting across to the other side of the road when the barrels are spaced so far apart.

By the time i got to where we were goin right across the street i seen the sex lights in my rear view. I pulled over in the parking lot and got my HCP out real quick before he got to the window and when he came to the window he said, '...pulled you over for going through those barrels, you got a blur on your tag, and a brake light out,' before i could say anything. I said, 'well i have this,' and handed him my HCP. He asked if i had a weapon on me, i said, 'yessir, on my 4 o'clock and whatever you need me to do let me know' He then told me calmly that he needed to cuff me for safety and him remove the gun and unload it. (I am guessing that this is due to me being a 22yr old college kid and not rocking a mustache and a leather vest, but i did not complain nor have any kind of attitude, i just put myself in his shoes and did what he asked)There was no resistance or excessive force on either side. He then realized it was my first time pulled over with it and was bragging about getting to 'pop my cherry'

He then made me follow him to his vehicle to make sure the weapon was not stolen, while waiting he was complimenting me on how nice a gun it was. In no time two other LEO's walked up and they were passing it around admiring it while we waited for dispatch to answer back. My baby came back clean(of course). He then said, 'make sure you wait till i am long gone before you reload that and have a nice night', and drove off.

Not a single mention of the previous reasons for being pulled over once the HCP came into play.

I respected him, he respected me. All it cost me was a single HydraShok he dropped in the gravel mudd puddle unchambering it. Everyone went home happy.

[Fallguy]

Hmmmm, Handcuffed, disarmed, weapon passed around, ammo dropped....and some wonder why some of us don't want to notify......

[Guest Bill Lumberg]

Not informing a cop you're armed is a sure sign of an idiot. Informing is an easy way to reduce your chances of getting shot, and increase your chance of having as pleasant an experience as whatever you did to get pulled over will allow.

[Fallguy]

Yes...it sure sounds like IzzyIsaac had a pleasant experience. Where as had he not informed and as long as the weapon stayed concealed, it may have never came up.

Also if I am shot by a LEO for legally carrying when the weapon is still inside my pocket, in the holster on my hip or otherwise not being handled by me then I believe that to be the actions of an idiot.

[Guest Todd@CIS]

Hmmmm, Handcuffed, disarmed, weapon passed around, ammo dropped....and some wonder why some of us don't want to notify......

Agreed.

IMO, during a routine traffic stop, getting handcuffed after giving the officer a valid HCP is grounds for a complaint.

[Guest Todd@CIS]

Not informing a cop you're armed is a sure sign of an idiot.

Informing is probably the best option, but I'd have to disagree with your statement. I really don't care one way or another. From an officer safety standpoint, I usually assume everyone (good and bad) has a gun when I deal with them.

If I can meet the Terry vs. Ohio requirements, I'll do a frisk.

[Guest Bill Lumberg]

Your security guard license doesn't do anything for you if you're carrying personally. Your carry permit doesn't do anything for you if you're carrying as a guard.

Just out of curiosity for our LEOs, I'm an licensed armed guard, do you want me to produce my Armed Guard License along with my HCP, or instead of, when I'm in uniform?

[Guest IzzyIsaac]

Yeah, it does suck that i had to be cuffed, just the fact of the matter, but he did not look much older than me. Maybe he was new and that was why? If there would have been any attitude or hostility then i would of been upset, but like i said, everything was calm and casual. I've learned one thing about the system so far in life...it's not often you beat it. That is why i did not take further actions. Now if he had gave me about 3 citations after it all, that might of been a different story =)

[Fallguy]

Yeah, it does suck that i had to be cuffed, just the fact of the matter, but he did not look much older than me. Maybe he was new and that was why? If there would have been any attitude or hostility then i would of been upset, but like i said, everything was calm and casual. I've learned one thing about the system so far in life...it's not often you beat it. That is why i did not take further actions. Now if he had gave me about 3 citations after it all, that might of been a different story =)

I think you handled it well and have a great attitude.

In all honesty...not sure if I would follow through with anything either. Most LEOs I know are very professional. Last trooper that gave me a ticket (over 15+ years ago) was so professional, Hell I thanked him and thought about offering to buy him lunch.

I understand that this is not the "norm" and 99.9% of the time if a HCP holder notifies right away all that is said by the LEO is "ok" or "where is it? - don't touch it."

Also I agree it is better not to let them "find" it. If I thought I was about to be searched for whatever reason or I was carrying in a way that it might become exposed during the course of business with the LEO I would inform.

My only real point is...situations like this is why some choose to not inform right away.

[Fallguy]

Your security guard license doesn't do anything for you if you're carrying personally. Your carry permit doesn't do anything for you if you're carrying as a guard.

I can agree 100% with that.

[Guest Matchguy]

Yes...it sure sounds like IzzyIsaac had a pleasant experience. Where as had he not informed and as long as the weapon stayed concealed, it may have never came up.

Also if I am shot by a LEO for legally carrying when the weapon is still inside my pocket, in the holster on my hip or otherwise not being handled by me then I believe that to be the actions of an idiot.

Who will be dead, you or the idiot?

[Fallguy]

Who will be dead, you or the idiot?

Me if he shoots true enough I guess.

[Guest m&pc9]

I have giving it much thought. I have decided to inform the officer. The way Im going to do it is when I get pulled over I am going to yell out the window "I have a gun". Then I am going to stick it out the window so the nice officer can take control of it .

[Guest Matchguy]

I have giving it much thought. I have decided to inform the officer. The way Im going to do it is when I get pulled over I am going to yell out the window "I have a gun". Then I am going to stick it out the window so the nice officer can take control of it .

Are you the guy I heard about who struck a match to see where a gas leak was coming from?

[Guest justme]

I'm just gonna relate my experience. LEOs and others please post comment and opinions.

Early morning on my way to work. I travel through the West Gate/Belle Meade area.

I admittedly was traveling faster than the posted speed limit, but with other traffic. (Yes, I'm well aware that doesn't make it OK).

But I digress, in the eyes of the Metro/Davidson County police officer on the motorcycle, it was my lucky day. I pulled over to the shoulder after he signaled me as the soon-to-be recipient to pay some "fast tax".

At this point, let me set the visual:

2003 Isuzu Rodeo, clean and no dents or bumperstickers.

Me: 40 yr old, clean shaven, mustache, collared dress shirt and slacks, eye glasses.

Radio off, nothing in the front passenger seat, dash or consoles.

By the time the officer reached my window, I had DL, Vehicle Reg and Insurance card in my left hand and my wallet in my right hand, wrists resting atop the steering wheel, window down.

Immediately upon his approach, he asked "when did I plan to tell him I had a gun in the car?"

He then goes on a rant about how he wouldn't think twice about dragging me out onto the pavement, cuffing me or just putting a .45 cal through my brain.

Once he calmed down, i asked what that was all about.

He said he had spotted my HCP in the window of my wallet.

(I carry my DL, HCP, Insurance card and Vehicle Reg in the same section of my wallet, DL facing out. Once these other documents were removed, the old HCP was standing in the wallet window front and center).

Never moving my hands and speaking very calmly, I inquired that I didn't think that the HCP or an yet unseen hand gun was relevant to a traffic stop, but that if he must know, the HCP was current and the handgun was unloaded, holstered and in my laptop case in the back seat and that I would cooperate without any resistance. (yeah, I know, I might as well have had a paper weight as to have been carrying an unloaded gun out of hands reach - and no, not for this instance).

At any rate, I got the ticket (no argument there, I was guilty of the violation and knew the rep of the territory).

But I don't think anybody deserves the hassle.

Opinions?

LEOS, where was the break down here?

Not a LEO--but the breakdown was HIS--he is nothing more than a bully with a badge and should be out of a job and reduced to something safe like bagging groceries at your local Kroger..

This is EXACTLY why everyone should carry a digital recorder and have it on recording at all times you are out and carrying...that little comment about the "45 cal through the brain" would have earned him a complaint with the District Atty General for threatening to kill me, a copy of the tape would be included, a copy would have also been provided to the TBI along with my complaint to them, and my complaint to the FBI civil rights division, my lawyer, Congressman, and Fox news, along with posting a copy on Youtube and distributing the video across the net so that everyone can know what wonderful officers that particular department employees and how well behaved and well trained they are.

That officer sounds like he is not only a danger to himself, but sounds paranoid as well and should not be allowed to even look at a gun.

[Guest justme]

if there is no state requirement to inform then DON'T inform unless your firearm is in an area where you keep your insurance/registration and have to reach toward it.

you're not required to answer questions, even at a traffic stop beyond providing identification, and there are limits on what information you are legally required to give. Sometimes telling you have a permit when it has not been asked for could just create more problems than it solves.

[DaveTN]

you're not required to answer questions, even at a traffic stop beyond providing identification, and there are limits on what information you are legally required to give.

What you are posting it ridiculous. You obviously don’t have any legal knowledge so why don’t you quit giving advice.

You have a 5th amendment right not to incriminate yourself in an interrogation. You do not have a right that says you do not have to answer questions during a traffic stop or in an investigation.

Drunks usually either talk too much or don’t talk at all. The next time you decided to play deaf and dumb on a traffic stop and they get you out to give you field sobriety tests; continue mouthing off that you have a right to remain silent and let us know how that works out for you.

[Guest Bill Lumberg]

Correct Dave!

What you are posting it ridiculous. You obviously don’t have any legal knowledge so why don’t you quit giving advice.

You have a 5th amendment right not to incriminate yourself in an interrogation. You do not have a right that says you do not have to answer questions during a traffic stop or in an investigation.

Drunks usually either talk too much or don’t talk at all. The next time you decided to play deaf and dumb on a traffic stop and they get you out to give you field sobriety tests; continue mouthing off that you have a right to remain silent and let us know how that works out for you.

[Guest justme]

What you are posting it ridiculous. You obviously don’t have any legal knowledge so why don’t you quit giving advice.

if you say so then it must be true Dave.

You have a 5th amendment right not to incriminate yourself in an interrogation. You do not have a right that says you do not have to answer questions during a traffic stop or in an investigation.

Show me a TN statute that tells me I have to answer questions beyond providing ID at a traffic stop or during an investigation?

Show me case law?

Drunks usually either talk too much or don’t talk at all. The next time you decided to play deaf and dumb on a traffic stop and they get you out to give you field sobriety tests; continue mouthing off that you have a right to remain silent and let us know how that works out for you.

You automatically jump to the most ridiculous argument you can don't you?

for example--say I am out and get pulled over--officer comes up and asks me if I know why he stopped me--I answer, why no officer, I have no idea, I was just about to ask you that....

during or just after the conclusion of the stop--for speeding for example, the officer decides to ask me where I am going--I would respond...well officer I would really rather not answer that question because it is personal.

The officer might not like it if you refuse to answer some of their questions--but there isn't a law in TN, nor is there any SCOTUS opinion that I am aware of that tells me that I have to answer....you have seen the Bierfeldt video yes?

Dave show me the statute telling me I have to answer questions from a LEO?

Edited April 15, 2009 by justme

[Guest justme]

Correct Dave!

Show me the statute in T.C.A that tells me I have to provide any information beyond necessary information to identify myself.

We have been through this in other threads and I have yet to see ANY statute telling me what information I am LEGALLY required to provide under Tennessee law.

I have yet to see ANY statute that tells me I am LEGALLY required to answer questions at a stop beyond providing necessary information to identify myself.

So please please please--show me the law, show me the legal requirement.

I don't want personal opinions, I don't want the LEO opinion that we have to answer every question they ask, I don't want your personal ideas--I want to see the LAW, STATUTE or CASELAW that requires me to answer every question I am given that does not automatically fall under the 5th Amendment right to not self-incriminate.

[Guest canynracer]

You're missing the point...you may not HAVE to...per say.but, you can choose to be an ass, and they will choose to be a ass back. If they have the thought that you may be hiding something, all you did was prolong your ticket.

You're right, dont answer, but then dont complain when you are there for 30 min for a 5 min speeding ticket. Sometimes common sense needs to trump case law.

Edited April 15, 2009 by canynracer

[Guest Old goat]

Just last week my butt was itching, but I refused to scratch it because I know for a fact that there is no law in Tn. that says I have to, nor any SCOTUS opinion that says I must. No I said to myself, I will not scratch. If I want to stand here and suffer I can, its my right. Although it took a while, my butt finally stopped itching and I felt such pride in that I had not allowed myself to be forced to do something that I really didn't want to, I didn't give, I stood up to my butt and won. Just proof that everyone needs to know their rights. Now I Know that if I had just gone ahead and scratched my butt when it started itching, I would felt much better quickly and would not have lost my right to just let it itch the next time if I wanted, but I had to prove the point. No matter how foolish it may have seemed one my part.

[TNRobocop]

On a traffic stop I appreciate it if a HCP person says they have one with them. My statement back was always where and leave it alone where it is when they tell me. I also don't recall ever giving a ticket to a HCP person either.

I will always know if you have a permit only after you tell me or after I run your license.

I always assume you have a gun.

I see a gun and I don't know you have a permit you might get a 1911 screwed into your ear.

Which is a safer way of doing it?

Take that for what it's worth.

[Fallguy]

Just last week my butt was itching, but I refused to scratch it because I know for a fact that there is no law in Tn. that says I have to, nor any SCOTUS opinion that says I must. No I said to myself, I will not scratch. If I want to stand here and suffer I can, its my right. Although it took a while, my butt finally stopped itching and I felt such pride in that I had not allowed myself to be forced to do something that I really didn't want to, I didn't give, I stood up to my butt and won. Just proof that everyone needs to know their rights. Now I Know that if I had just gone ahead and scratched my butt when it started itching, I would felt much better quickly and would not have lost my right to just let it itch the next time if I wanted, but I had to prove the point. No matter how foolish it may have seemed one my part.

[Guest LieutenantDan67]

On a traffic stop I appreciate it if a HCP person says they have one with them. My statement back was always where and leave it alone where it is when they tell me. I also don't recall ever giving a ticket to a HCP person either.

I will always know if you have a permit only after you tell me or after I run your license.

I always assume you have a gun.

I see a gun and I don't know you have a permit you might get a 1911 screwed into your ear.

Which is a safer way of doing it?

Take that for what it's worth.

Great post!

Can I ask, is it good enough for you that I inform you by handing over my HCP with my DL, POI and registration without saying anything until you speak to me first? Then you ask me if I'm carrying and where, etc?

A couple of LEOs have told me that the 'lower heartrate' way to go on a stop...