ATF 41F changes?

[Sam1]

http://blog.princelaw.com/2016/02/05/important-update-on-implementation-of-atf-41f/

 

Site says:

 

 

 

ATF now asserts that when ATF-41F becomes effective, all Forms 1 and Forms 4 submitted by legal entities must be accompanied by fingerprints and photographs regardless of the two-year look back provision stated in the regulation.

 

Anyone know if this is an actual concern, or if it is a website trying to pull in traffic with irrelevant speculation?

[Oh Shoot]

http://blog.princelaw.com/2016/02/05/important-update-on-implementation-of-atf-41f/

 

Site says:

 

 

Anyone know if this is an actual concern, or if it is a website trying to pull in traffic with irrelevant speculation?

 

Nope, real thing, changes already entered into federal register, timeline about 6 months before taking effect I believe. Anything acquired by a trust up until whatever exactly that deadline is still plays by the current rules. They almost got the CLEO signoff back into too, but that got zapped, not so much of a big deal here but it is in a lot of places.

 

I thought it was referred to as "41p" though that link seems to be all about the same thing.

 

Been discussed here for some time:

 

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/topic/92461-41p-update-november-2015/

 

- OS

Edited February 7, 2016 by Oh Shoot

[Sam1]

I knew the 41P thing was a go, but the 41F was throwing me off.  As far as requiring the prints and pics from 2 years back from the time of implementation makes this crazy rush to get everything submitted sort of irrelevant doesn't it?

 

And how would they even handle that?  Just contact the people and force us to submit those for record-keeping purposes?  Then does that include everyone on the trust every time something is donated to the trust?  That's going to be a pain in the ass if so.

[Oh Shoot]

I knew the 41P thing was a go, but the 41F was throwing me off.  As far as requiring the prints and pics from 2 years back from the time of implementation makes this crazy rush to get everything submitted sort of irrelevant doesn't it?

 

And how would they even handle that?  Just contact the people and force us to submit those for record-keeping purposes?  Then does that include everyone on the trust every time something is donated to the trust?  That's going to be a pain in the ass if so.

 

Oh. I guess I didn't read your link that carefully. Short answer then is "I dunno", mea culpa.

 

edit: well, I read it carefully, and still don't know. On one hand they seem to be saying that any trust acquisitions done when the new rule was first proposed up until the time of implementation on 7/13/16 would need to be retroactively re-processed with fingerprints, but then they quote ATF as saying that no, that anything postmarked before 7/13/16 is grandfathered under the previous rules, which is what everybody has understood all along.

 

So I repeat, it doesn't make much sense to me, so "I dunno", but I'm wondering if some gummit rep in that private meeting with ASA either was misunderstood or misspoke simply because he didn't know what the hell he was talking about. Gawd knows there's plenty of false statements made by ATF folks over time -- their site is replete with at best "incomplete" answers in FAQS over the years, incomplete enough to just be de facto wrong.

 

- OS

Edited February 7, 2016 by Oh Shoot

[midtennchip]

Couple of things:

 

1. 41P and 41F are one in the same.  The "P" designation is the Proposed regulation and it changes to "F" once the regulation becomes Final.  In this case, 41F is slightly different than 41P, but when people refer to them, they are really talking about the same thing.  Attorneys refer to 41F now because that is the text that matters.

 

2.  The 2-year lookback period refers to subsection ( c ) of the Final Rule.  Under subsection ( c ), there is an exception to the need to file fingerprints and photos with a trust.  The exception was this:

 

     Once a trust obtained a tax stamp under the new Final Rule (i.e., by providing the fingerprints and photos), the trust would not have to re-submit fingerprints and photos for any additional tax stamp application submitted within 2 years of the date of the approval IF THE RESPONSIBLE PERSONS HAD NOT CHANGED.  The idea being that a person's fingerprints and photo is not likely to change significantly in a 2-year period.

 

What is being referred to in the Prince Law article is that the ATF appears to be taking the position that the exception really doesn't mean anything and that trusts would have to provide fingerprints and photos every time.  The Final Rule itself doesn't say that, though.

 

Bottom Line:

 

1.  if you have a trust, you MUST provide fingerprints and photos for each Responsible Person with the first tax stamp application you submit on or after July 13, 2016.

2.  If 41F is actually followed, the trust would not have to provide fingerprints and photos more than once every 2 years (regardless of how many tax stamps it obtains in that 2-year period).

3.  If 41F is NOT followed (which is what the article says), the trust would have to provide fingerprints and photos with every tax stamp application, regardless of whether or not the trust had been changed in the past 2 years.

 

Until July 13th, there still is no reason to submit fingerprints or photos.  If a trust NEVER applies for another tax stamp on or after July 13, 2016, the trust will NOT have to go back and submit fingerprints and photos for tax stamps already in process or approved before July 13th.

 

Hope that helps.

Edited February 11, 2016 by midtennchip

[btq96r]

Bottom Line:

 

1.  if you have a trust, you MUST provide fingerprints and photos for each Responsible Person with the first tax stamp application you submit on or after July 13, 2016.

2.  If 41F is actually followed, the trust would not have to provide fingerprints and photos more than once every 2 years (regardless of how many tax stamps it obtains in that 2-year period).

3.  If 41F is NOT followed (which is what the article says), the trust would have to provide fingerprints and photos with every tax stamp application, regardless of whether or not the trust had been changed in the past 2 years.

 

Until July 13th, there still is no reason to submit fingerprints or photos.  If a trust NEVER applies for another tax stamp on or after July 13, 2016, the trust will NOT have to go back and submit fingerprints and photos for tax stamps already in process or approved before July 13th.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Most certainly does. Very good breakdown, thanks.  :up: