Open Carrier Gets Robbed of His Gun

[gun sane]

I'm not posting this to discourage open carry, but to encourage use of a good retention holster. If it's out for all to see, make sure your pistol stays with thee.

 

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2016/02/03/man-becomes-example-of-why-some-gun-owners-prefer-concealed-carry-over-open-carry/

[Garufa]

:popcorn:

[CommsNBombs]

And this is why I shake my head at people would OC in

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

[TNWNGR]

Based upon my professional background and experence I'll just say I'm more then a bit suspicious of that story. Could it happen that way? Sure. Did it really happen that way? There are some places I'd avoid even if I had a trained, experenced and competent protection detail with me.

Edited February 3, 2016 by TNWNGR

[Sidecarist]

Personal opinion here... If you are going to carry Open or Concealed it is a responsibility to maintain a higher level of awareness. Condition Yellow. Its not that hard, but vigilance has to become a state of mind. A major part of that is not making yourself a target. My biggest problem with open carry is that by its nature you become a target for criminals, reporters, business owners, etc. It's not worth the bother. Carry concealed and that solves the problem. It's a shame that the guy was caught unaware of these two criminals, I have no way of knowing if he was doing his best to be vigilant against such an attack or not. Just my $0.02 on the open carry thing. Not an accusation against the victim.

 

Sadly many good people are denied the right to CCW.

 

I am a bit skeptical because this happened in VA... After the whole reciprocity thing and the attention to open carry in VA being a way around the loss of reciprocity this happens. Makes ya think...

[221 Fireball]

Good points Sidecarist. 

 

I still can't help but think that many who open carry may THINK they are ready for a confrontation, that is, until it happens. He may of well been aware of getting approached and froze to respond. There is no amount of training to tell you how you will react until it actually happens - fight or flight (flight can mean not doing anything as they snatch your gun out your holster.) 

 

Unless you're a combat veteran, most won't know. Which to me means all that much more to carry concealed. You then have that choice of fight or flight on your terms, not theirs, and if you walk away, they'll never know it might of gone bad for them. (And you'll still have your weapon.)

 

I pack concealed with the mind set that if someone is in the process to attack, stab, shoot  me (or all of the above). I'm going to defend myself best I can. I will not know how I will react to such a situation, as it has never happened. But I pray that I live my life without ever having to find out. I don't go looking for gun fights, it's one thing that is NOT on my bucket list.

[runco]

There was a guy at Wally a few months back, I could have easily pick pocketed his piece.  I do often think about that myself.  I would hate to be shot by own my piece from someone else.

[Will]

I have seen two open carry clowns at WM as of late #1 had a full size XD sticking out of his right hip pocket in a pair of baggy pants ready to fall out.

#2 was a guy all of 4.5 feet with a SOB Holster and a Sub Compact Glock  hanging out mid back carry. It would of took two seconds to remove it

without him knowing it. I guess I have never seen a reason to open carry.

[NRA]

I too could have remove several open carry guns from individuals.  I have no problem exercising your second amendment rights but please do it responsibly.

[gregintenn]

There was a guy at Wally a few months back, I could have easily pick pocketed his piece.  I do often think about that myself.  I would hate to be shot by own my piece from someone else.

I'd nearly as soon to be shot with it as to have to report it had been stolen from my holster while on my belt. :confused:

[Sidecarist]

I'd nearly as soon to be shot with it as to have to report it had been stolen from my holster while on my belt. :confused:

Well said. It is surprising how easy it is to have something unknowingly picked from your pocket.

[TNWNGR]

Not intended to be negative in any way here but how many HCP holders here have ever been taught and practiced weapon retention techniques or disarming techniques? For those prior or current LEO who have do you practice them at all? You can buy every Level III or IV holster available and I promise you they are nowhere near as secure as you think that they are. How you carry is your business and if you choose to be irresponsible or imprudent then that burden gets passed on to others. Its kind of like the mantra (lack of prior planning leads to.)... You should be able to finish the rest. Its not about ego or exerting your rights, just use some good sense and be safe.

Edited February 4, 2016 by TNWNGR

[ehull20000]

Retention holsters and open carry go hand in hand. Weapon retention training is a great idea. I would think a hightened sense of situational awareness would also naturally accompany open carry folks.

On the flip side open carry can send the signal that you are a hard target and MIGHT make criminals think twice.

I also doubt the situation went down exactly like the news reported.

I still view open carry as more of a political statement than good defensive practice. I guess if it is all you can do then it's better than nothing.

[Sidecarist]

Retention techniques aren't something most people practice not even LEO's. The best way to retain your weapon is that no one knows you have it.

Situational awareness is the best skill anyone can have to prevent a conflict in the first place. No need to be paranoid just highly aware of your surroundings. I try to do this as best I can, but I'm still surprised by things sometimes.

I also agree that for many open carry is as much a political statement as a serious self defense strategy.

[btq96r]

It could be an SA fail, it could be a holster fail, and I'd say there is equal chance it could also be the fact that some people, open or concealed carry, aren't going to win a 2-on-1 fight under a lot of circumstances. 

 

I don't think there is anything wrong with open carry as a tactic, and I do so from time to time.  You do need more situational awareness, but not to some massively increased degree than you should already have.  Open carry doesn't mean you shouldn't go into an area or situation you wouldn't otherwise or anything, same for concealed.  Positioning is more important too.  Open carrying anywhere behind 3 or 9 o'clock on the belt isn't prudent, IMO.  Reading that some people open carry in spots where their reach doesn't have much strength to go with it has me scratching my head. 

[DaveTN]

You can have all the situational awareness your mind can handle, but if multiple perps walk up on you in in public, you can’t start waving a gun around; you will go to jail. Unless you have the skills of Bruce Lee, they don’t have much to worry about in disarming you.

[Sunfish]

People need to realize they are not on horseback in open country with a fast draw set up buckled on. On foot in a crowd you are vulnerable to these Heckle and Jeckle teams where one comes from behind while the other has you distracted. Never show your cards before all bets are down and don't let anybody see your weapon very long before the loud noise and funny smell. Once they grab your arm on the holster side your in trouble. A shirt pocket shank that you can grab with either hand will help them to remember to keep their hands to themselves. Sunfish       

[Sidecarist]

For me it's about using my SA to never get in the situation where I have a 2 on 1 attack happening. Thankfully I've always been able to avoid such situations. I hope I always will be able to avoid them. Plus I choose to not open carry in public places to reduce the chances of being targeted.

Everyone has to make their own choices and deal with the consequences.

[LagerHead]

And this is why I shake my head at people would OC in

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

 

Don't feel too superior. It happens to concealed carriers too.

 

http://concealednation.org/2014/12/situational-awareness-fail-concealed-carrier-robbed-of-his-gun/

[Obiwan]

Well, if you are knocked over your head and attacked by multiple thugs, I would think they can take whatever they want, including shoes'n'socks!

 

Aside from being pummeled to the ground, I've been wondering how much safer concealed carry is. If you carry under the shirt at 4 or 5 o'clock, and someone sees the belt clip and realizes you're carrying concealed, an attacker (even a single one), might be able to rip the shirt up and get a hold of the gun before you're able to react. 

 

I'd like to think I would feel that and be able to swivel around, landing an elbow, then fist, then a barrel into the attackers face, but I'm not sure I'd be able to recognize what's happening, stop what I'm doing, and react quickly enough before the thug has his hand on the grip. I think that requires Bruce Lee type reflexes. And I don't know if I'd want to have a holster with a snap under the shirt. Seems like too many steps to jump through during a draw. (consider unsnapping a canted gun at 4-5 position... uhg).

 

So I think there is no 100% safe way to carry. You need to be aware and prepared. I guess it doesn't matter if it's a gun or your wallet. You carry it, you gotta guard it, but there's still the chance of someone snatching it.

[suspiciousmind]

Always carry two guns!

[Sidecarist]

Now that's a great idea! but keep one of them concealed...

[East_TN_Patriot]

You can have all the situational awareness your mind can handle, but if multiple perps walk up on you in in public, you can’t start waving a gun around; you will go to jail. Unless you have the skills of Bruce Lee, they don’t have much to worry about in disarming you.

 

Of course, I think a good argument could be made that someone trying to steal your firearm constitutes a situation where response with deadly force could be lawfully applied.  I don't think it's much of a stretch at all to make a presumption that a person willing to steal a firearm from someone's person is very likely to then use the firearm to do harm to the victim.  We know that it is not unheard of for LEOs to be killed with their own firearm after being disarmed.  If I am approached by two aggressors who demand my firearm, they are very likely to get it bullets first if I have no other option.  I am not surrendering my firearm at the risk of being shot and killed with it.  

[East_TN_Patriot]

Not intended to be negative in any way here but how many HCP holders here have ever been taught and practiced weapon retention techniques or disarming techniques? For those prior or current LEO who have do you practice them at all? You can buy every Level III or IV holster available and I promise you they are nowhere near as secure as you think that they are. How you carry is your business and if you choose to be irresponsible or imprudent then that burden gets passed on to others. Its kind of like the mantra (lack of prior planning leads to.)... You should be able to finish the rest. Its not about ego or exerting your rights, just use some good sense and be safe.

 

Weapon retention skills are fairly simple.  Cover the holster with your hands and tuck it into your body as best you can and use hard blows to the attacker's arms to keep them from gaining control.  Disarming techniques are more difficult and even highly skilled LEOs know it's difficult to disarm someone unless the conditions are ideal, thus disarming someone is considered an absolute last resort approach.   

[DaveTN]

Of course, I think a good argument could be made that someone trying to steal your firearm constitutes a situation where response with deadly force could be lawfully applied.  I don't think it's much of a stretch at all to make a presumption that a person willing to steal a firearm from someone's person is very likely to then use the firearm to do harm to the victim.  We know that it is not unheard of for LEOs to be killed with their own firearm after being disarmed.  If I am approached by two aggressors who demand my firearm, they are very likely to get it bullets first if I have no other option.  I am not surrendering my firearm at the risk of being shot and killed with it.

 
 

Weapon retention skills are fairly simple.  Cover the holster with your hands and tuck it into your body as best you can and use hard blows to the attacker's arms to keep them from gaining control.  Disarming techniques are more difficult and even highly skilled LEOs know it's difficult to disarm someone unless the conditions are ideal, thus disarming someone is considered an absolute last resort approach.

I didn’t mean to imply that someone trying to take your gun doesn’t justify the use of deadly force; it did when I was a cop and I believe it still does today. It satisfies the requirements of “immediate danger of death or great bodily harm”.

I’m also not suggesting you surrender your weapon. I’m suggesting that a group of gang bangers could casually walk up to you in the mall and take your weapon. We have all seen the “knockout” videos. Most of those people never even moved their arms; too fast too furious. As a Police Officer I’m sure you have either been involved in or seen several Officers disarm someone that has a gun. Duck, tuck, cover and turn all you want; but if you are overpowered you are overpowered. I know that may be hard for some people to swallow; but its real life.

It’s just something to think about and discuss.