Trust God or carry?

[Guest Astra900]

The GOD I serve gave me enough common sense to take care of myself.

Show me the scripture that says; Follow me and get an easy, safe ride through life.

I keep Jesus in my heart, and a Ruger SP101 in my holster.

[deerslayer]

Your friends views are not Calvinism. It's hyperCalvinism. Calvin was not a fatalist.

I consider myself a Calvinist (at least a 4.5 pointer ). Just as I believe that God is fully three and fully one, and just as I believe that Jesus was fully God and fully man, I also believe that God is 100% sovereign AND man is accountable for his actions.

Not necessarily wanting to start a religious debate, but your friend has been mislabeled.

As to the issue at hand, in Exodus 14, Moses is praying for god to save the Israelites from the pursuing Egyptian army. God basically tells him "Stop praying and get moving." When Nehemiah is rebuilding Jerusalem, the workers are told to work with a sword in one hand. Jesus told his disciples if they didn't have a sword, get one.

I am pretty clear with my conscience on my decision to carry.

What is the difference between a Calvinist and a predestination believer like my acquaintance?

[Smith]

What is the difference between a Calvinist and a predestination believer like my acquaintance?

I can tell you from many theology classes that that is a more complicated question than you want to imagine. It has been debated and mislabeled for centuries. Calvinism, Arminianism, free will, etc. are non resolvable because they deal with the nature of an unlimited God spoken in the context of temporal terms. While Calvin was a sharp individual he is not the end all be all of scriptural theological interpretation. In fact many of his conclusions were based on Catholic/Anglican traditional understandings that no longer hold value.

BTW Arminius considered himself a "good" Calvinist. Most Calvinist aren't full Calvinist. Hypercalvinism is fatalistic and void of any free will or choice. It is an extreme view of what Calvin taught that Calvin would/did full reject.

[Guest Hooker]

I can tell you from many theology classes that that is a more complicated question than you want to imagine. It has been debated and mislabeled for centuries. Calvinism, Arminianism, free will, etc. are non resolvable because they deal with the nature of an unlimited God spoken in the context of temporal terms. While Calvin was a sharp individual he is not the end all be all of scriptural theological interpretation. In fact many of his conclusions were based on Catholic/Anglican traditional understandings that no longer hold value.

BTW Arminius considered himself a "good" Calvinist. Most Calvinist aren't full Calvinist. Hypercalvinism is fatalistic and void of any free will or choice. It is an extreme view of what Calvin taught that Calvin would/did full reject.

Nate what do you think of the message by Ron Comfort "The Fruits Of Calvinism"? If you have not listened to it you can google it. And I agree that it is a complicated debate.

[Fallguy]

I am reminded of two things.

Has anyone seen Evan Almighty? At one point when Morgan Freeman (who plays God) was talking to Evan's wife he said (or something close to this)

"When you ask got to make your family closer, do you think he simply does it or does he give you the opportunity to become closer?" and other similar things that he gives you the opportunity to make things happen that you want, not just making them happen out of thin air.

Also a joke that I'm sure most have heard.

There was a flood coming in this one town, the water was rising and evacuations began. As the water rose this one man had to climb upon his roof to get out of the water. Finally a rescue boat came by. They told him, "Come on, get in the boat and we will take you to safety." The man replied "No, My faith in God will save me."

The water continued to rise, by this time there was only a small patch of roof left that wasn't under water. Another boat came by and again they called out, "Come on with us now! If you don't' you will surely drown." Again the main said "No! My faith in God will save me."

The water now had the roof totally covered. The water was just below the man's head as he stood on the roof. This time a helicopter came by. They yelled at the man. "Climb up the ladder and come to safety. If you don't you will surely drown! We are the last rescuers going out this evening." For a third time the man yelled out. "No! I have no fear! My faith in God will save me!"

Well, you guessed it. The water finally rose high enough and the main was unable to tread water long enough and drown. Once he gets to Heaven he ask to see God. God meets the man and the man says, "O Lord, why did you forsake me? As the water rose and rose and my life was in danger my faith in You never wavered. Why didn't you save me? The Lord put his arm around the man to comfort him and said, "My Son, I love you very much. I sent two boats and a helicopter for you. Why didn't you get in?"

[Smith]

Nate what do you think of the message by Ron Comfort "The Fruits Of Calvinism"? If you have not listened to it you can google it. And I agree that it is a complicated debate.

I think he nailed it. I think his statement that no church has ever been built on Calvinism only torn apart is a very good observation. A true Calvinist will by nature be in conflict of the gospel directives.

Back on topic - I will trust God to providentially guide my the Federal HST that I freely choose, so that his will for my life will be accomplished.

[Guest Fenris]

I can tell you from many theology classes that that is a more complicated question than you want to imagine. It has been debated and mislabeled for centuries. Calvinism, Arminianism, free will, etc. are non resolvable because they deal with the nature of an unlimited God spoken in the context of temporal terms. While Calvin was a sharp individual he is not the end all be all of scriptural theological interpretation. In fact many of his conclusions were based on Catholic/Anglican traditional understandings that no longer hold value.

BTW Arminius considered himself a "good" Calvinist. Most Calvinist aren't full Calvinist. Hypercalvinism is fatalistic and void of any free will or choice. It is an extreme view of what Calvin taught that Calvin would/did full reject.

+1

It sounds like your friend's view could be expanded to everything in life, including evangelism.

The fallacy is for the hyper-Calvinist that *he* knows what God knows, or thinks he does. It is not my place to decide or determine who is in the "elect". My job is to spread the Gospel. In fact, if I take a more positive view than fatalism, predestination emboldens me to spread the news about Jesus because that way, I can't mess it up. The person's salvation does not rest on my ability to argue/present my case.

As Nate said, *both* sides of the debate are convoluted because both deal with an unlimited God in human terms. There are going to be misconceptions. I didn't mean to rabbit trail, but felt I needed to say something about the term. Sorry if I derailed.

[Luckyforward]

I have a master and doctoral degree in theology, have pastored 4 churches over 25 years, and am now a licensed mental health counselor. All together, what do my education and experience say?

God has given us a mind that he expects us to use with guidance from the Holy Spirit. Thus, the Father has entrusted me with the ability to make decisions based on His guidance.

My decision: to carry and be prepared for any form of evil that may exist is God's guidance on a generation that chooses to ignore His precepts.

Amen . . .

[Guest Hooker]

I have a master and doctoral degree in theology, have pastored 4 churches over 25 years, and am now a licensed mental health counselor. All together, what do my education and experience say?

God has given us a mind that he expects us to use with guidance from the Holy Spirit. Thus, the Father has entrusted me with the ability to make decisions based on His guidance.

My decision: to carry and be prepared for any form of evil that may exist is God's guidance on a generation that chooses to ignore His precepts.

Amen . . .

AMEN

[wjh2657]

"GOD does not work evil. He gives man reason and understanding to avoid the pitfalls of evil. It is when man disregards his GOD-given reason that he falls into the pitfalls of error and destruction" Kahlil Gibran

My reason tells me to carry.

My wife I recently survived a Tornado, having a home torn off right over our heads. Others were not so lucky, including a 6 month old infant in the next house.

Many people have come to me and told me I was touched by GOD and he saved me personally. I have to ask, if this is so, than why did GOD kill the baby? If this was a personal touch than it personal to everyone, including homicide of an infant. I think the truth is that we have to accept that GOD is a painter with a giant paint roller, bringing in many factors and creatures, he doesn't paint with a small artist's brush. I was under the roller and the baby wasn't. I don't try to look into any more detail than that. I really believe that man in general tries to see himself as far more important than he really is. I expect GOD to provide a liveable world, which he has. I look to my own GOD-given assets to wind my way through that world.

I carry!

[Guest Jamesmb]

I'd rather trust and carry. What say you?

I do neither.

[Guest Provence]

I think God expects us to use the tools at our disposal.

Edited December 8, 2008 by Provence
I pretty much duplicated Fallguy's #30!

[Punisher84]

I do neither.

? Uh ok then. Care to elaborate?

[Smith]

I think God expects us to use the tools at our disposal.

Proverbs 16:9

A man’s heart plans his way, but the Lord determines his steps.

[Guest TnDeerHunter]

I pray to GOD each and every day for my salvation and for the health and salvation of my family that being said I do believe God gave us a mind and expects us to us it. The calvinistic theory to me is kinda like different religions as long as we believe in a superior being that being GOD then our faith is well founded. Not a winable discussion.

[towerclimber37]

Proverbs 16:9

A man’s heart plans his way, but the Lord determines his steps.

That reminds me of a joke. about a woman who was waiting on the lord to save her from a flood...2 boats and a helicopter came by to get her off the roof of her house and she said "the lord said he would save me!"..

she drowns..and gets to heaven and says "why didn't you save me Lord??"

he replies "what do you want from me??? I sent you 2 boats and a helicopter!!"

[Guest Dean_JC78]

God will help us but we must put forth the effort. We can not just let go and expect him to carry us because we must still work at it and God can choose many ways to work, sometimes through us meaning the effort you put into it may be the blessing which God is giving you. So we must always be prepared.

Makes me think of that song "Jesus Take The Wheel" where she is having such a hard time she "lets go" and expects Jesus to take over and do all the work and that message is wrong. Instead she should pray for help and continue to fight, not let go.

We must all endure to the end stiving daily through all our trials and challenges but with a humble prayer to Heavenly Father to help us through.

[Fallguy]

That reminds me of a joke. about a woman who was waiting on the lord to save her from a flood...2 boats and a helicopter came by to get her off the roof of her house and she said "the lord said he would save me!"..

she drowns..and gets to heaven and says "why didn't you save me Lord??"

he replies "what do you want from me??? I sent you 2 boats and a helicopter!!"

I knew when I typed out a long version of that joke (post 30) it was too long and no one would read it...lol

[DaveTN]

I got my HCP mainly so I could keep a gun in the car; but I don’t feel the need to carry everywhere I go. I refuse to live in fear and feel sorry for those that do. If someone should shoot me; so be it.

The gun is there in case God needs it. I truly believe that when that woman security guard left cover and walked into the open at the gunman that was shooting at that church, and shot him dead; that was Gods hand.

[Guest tedbo]

God gave me this life. It is an awsome gift. It is my job to use my full potential to make it what it is the best as I can.

He also gave me the resolve and the tools to keep it and not just throw it away.

[Guest tadams]

That reminds me of a joke. about a woman who was waiting on the lord to save her from a flood...2 boats and a helicopter came by to get her off the roof of her house and she said "the lord said he would save me!"..

she drowns..and gets to heaven and says "why didn't you save me Lord??"

he replies "what do you want from me??? I sent you 2 boats and a helicopter!!"

I knew when I typed out a long version of that joke (post 30) it was too long and no one would read it...lol

I read it... it was exactly what I was thinking after reviewing the first page worth in this thread. You both got to it before me.

[J Smith]

God helps he who helps himself.

[Guest db99wj]

Good job punisher, well said.

[Guest sermon8r]

I pray every day that God keeps me safe at work, but I wear a Ballistic vest.

I pray that God keeps me safe when I drive, but I wear my seatbelt.

Theme established I assume. God gave us a brain and free will. We have a choice of how to live our lives. I believe God knows exactly when we will die and from what, but I think the choices we make our still ours and God gave us those decisions to make.

When you bend over and put your head in the sand you give the devil a big target.

[molonlabetn]

I trust that God gave me a brain and wits to prepare for and use any tools or means necessary for my preservation.

Looking for lightning bolts to zap a rapist before he can harm you is pretty dumb.

When David went up against Goliath, he made sure to take a sling and some stones with him... the faith part was in him hitting his target. Same goes for me, I pray.